Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-11-2012, 12:14 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by georgetg
Work-rules and scope are typically the more enduring aspects of a contract...
Day one of living under the new contract becomes the onset of buyer's remorse.
Which mostly incureable, under the RLA.
05-11-2012, 12:17 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: B737 FO
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
I agree some of the parts of the NN are concessionary, but let's also remember that a lot of the people on this board are reserves at DL. It affects them, and that means it is very vocal. Reserve issues affect people who are junior, and those same issues may not affect regular line holders. Sure, those line holders may upgrade and become reserves, but people saying losing an X day here, or talking about how much they may work on reserve in the future will probably move up to a line holder anyway, and some of these issues won't affect them as much. They are important issues, but reserve does not last forever unless you want it to. Unless you are the plug in a category you can't get out of or the plug at the company, you also have to look at issues as a possible and probable lineholder.
Of course the final language will determine everything, but as presented these rules are a loss that everyone should be concerned with.
05-11-2012, 12:20 PM
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Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
Originally Posted by georgetg
Bill, that is a terrible line of thinking. The fundamental reason our PWA exists because hope and promises of the past weren't kept and we needed it in writing.
Telling pilots “you’ll be line-holders someday” is a diversion and not a proper response to concerns about a negative impact of reserves’ quality of life. Reserve isn’t a “junior” issue as there are pilots across the majority of the seniority list on reserve. the issue becomes even more pressing when considering the impact lower manning will have on retarding a reserve pilots ability to advance to line-holder. Parts of the proposal will effect line holders as well in having reduced ability to green slip and a higher ALV...
My own personal experience isn't all that great. As a five year Delta pilot I am still on reserve -- certainly not what I would have expected -- and as of the first of the month I am not even in base but commute to reserve.
My own experience pales however when I hear the stories from the captains I fly with many with 20+ years at Delta barely hanging on to the Left seat. Quite a few moved back to FO positions, perhaps that can be seen as a career advancement because now they are "senior line holders" with a 25-40% pay
cut...
Shouldn't our motto be:
"When one Delta pilot has a problem we all have a problem?" oh, wait...
Cheers
George
Telling pilots “you’ll be line-holders someday” is a diversion and not a proper response to concerns about a negative impact of reserves’ quality of life. Reserve isn’t a “junior” issue as there are pilots across the majority of the seniority list on reserve. the issue becomes even more pressing when considering the impact lower manning will have on retarding a reserve pilots ability to advance to line-holder. Parts of the proposal will effect line holders as well in having reduced ability to green slip and a higher ALV...
My own personal experience isn't all that great. As a five year Delta pilot I am still on reserve -- certainly not what I would have expected -- and as of the first of the month I am not even in base but commute to reserve.
My own experience pales however when I hear the stories from the captains I fly with many with 20+ years at Delta barely hanging on to the Left seat. Quite a few moved back to FO positions, perhaps that can be seen as a career advancement because now they are "senior line holders" with a 25-40% pay
cut...
Shouldn't our motto be:
"When one Delta pilot has a problem we all have a problem?" oh, wait...
Cheers
George
George,
I'm not trying to divide the group or anything. I am pointing out the large demographic of this board. A lot of people on here are reserves at Delta. Some by choice, some just too junior. Unless you are very junior, reserve is a choice. Johnson29 was a 320FO, and probably could be a lineholder maybe in DTW, yet he put himself on 2 years of reserve in NYC on the ER. His choice. Not everyone wants that lifestyle, and one way you can change it is bidding within your means. I could fly larger, but I like not being on reserve. My choice. I don't want the reserves to be paid less or have to work a lot more, but sometimes that comes with being a reserve. During slow times, don't expect to fly a lot and make over guarantee. Over busy times, you may fly a lot. That's how it goes. What I am saying is people currently on reseve may not be in a year if we hire a bunch, and it's good to think about other things also, not just about things that surround you now. I want the whole contract to be better, believe me, but guys screaming about reserve changes is just one part of the whole group, but a large part on this board. No, I don't want manning changes, or furloughs, etc. It is good to tell ALPA what you don't like. I am just pointing out this demographic.
05-11-2012, 12:20 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by Sink r8
George,
Always enjoy your posts, because they're informative and well considered.
I've been struggling trying to see how the Reserve language would work. If I understand correctly, you're still full at Guarantee, which I guess could be as high as 82 hours in the summer (based on a rumor elsewhere that Reserve guarantee = ALV - 2). Scheduling would be able to take you to ALV + 15, or 99 hours, but they have to do this in one trip, right?
IOW, if they send you on a two day, 10:30 trip when you're at 72 hours for the month, you're at 82:30, and you're done. Of course, there can be a guy at 81:30 that gets sent out for a 17:00 3-day, and will hit 98:30. But how likely is that? If he has that much time under his belt, it's likely he's going into X-days, or he probably just flew.
If you think about practical applications, and think in terms of days off, and FAR's, I can't really think of a way you'd run every Reserve anywhere near 98:30 in the summer. Is it worse than now in terms of summer utilization? I'm pretty sure you're right, and I have a problem with this. But you can't assume they can get 23:00 out of every Reserve. It's not even going to be remotely close.
Always enjoy your posts, because they're informative and well considered.
I've been struggling trying to see how the Reserve language would work. If I understand correctly, you're still full at Guarantee, which I guess could be as high as 82 hours in the summer (based on a rumor elsewhere that Reserve guarantee = ALV - 2). Scheduling would be able to take you to ALV + 15, or 99 hours, but they have to do this in one trip, right?
IOW, if they send you on a two day, 10:30 trip when you're at 72 hours for the month, you're at 82:30, and you're done. Of course, there can be a guy at 81:30 that gets sent out for a 17:00 3-day, and will hit 98:30. But how likely is that? If he has that much time under his belt, it's likely he's going into X-days, or he probably just flew.
If you think about practical applications, and think in terms of days off, and FAR's, I can't really think of a way you'd run every Reserve anywhere near 98:30 in the summer. Is it worse than now in terms of summer utilization? I'm pretty sure you're right, and I have a problem with this. But you can't assume they can get 23:00 out of every Reserve. It's not even going to be remotely close.
But the whole raison d'être for the PWA is to protect pilots when pushed to the limit...
The reason we have a union is because they have our back...
In the end I did temper my analysis with the closing statement:
Some of the adverse effects of the proposed reserve rules could be mitigated by improvements to other sections. Reserves' trip assignments should have the same credit as line-holders'. Improvements to trip/duty rigs could help trips become more valuable for all helping line-holders and reserves alike. Increased credit for vacation, sick and training days would also help reach guarantee sooner. Finally valuing short-call duty no different than duty on rotation would go a long way in reducing the potential adverse impact the proposed rules would have in their current form.
George
05-11-2012, 12:24 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Good points. I think you're correctly drawn a distinction between the potential of impact on any given pilot, and the overall effect on staffing.
And you even used the right accents! So, who am I, to argue with such a post?
And you even used the right accents! So, who am I, to argue with such a post?
05-11-2012, 12:25 PM
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by georgetg
bill, that is a terrible line of thinking. The fundamental reason our pwa exists because hope and promises of the past weren't kept and we needed it in writing.
Telling pilots “you’ll be line-holders someday” is a diversion and not a proper response to concerns about a negative impact of reserves’ quality of life. Reserve isn’t a “junior” issue as there are pilots across the majority of the seniority list on reserve. The issue becomes even more pressing when considering the impact lower manning will have on retarding a reserve pilots ability to advance to line-holder. Parts of the proposal will effect line holders as well in having reduced ability to green slip and a higher alv...
My own personal experience isn't all that great. As a five year delta pilot i am still on reserve -- certainly not what i would have expected -- and as of the first of the month i am not even in base but commute to reserve.
My own experience pales however when i hear the stories from the captains i fly with many with 20+ years at delta barely hanging on to the left seat. Quite a few moved back to fo positions, perhaps that can be seen as a career advancement because now they are "senior line holders" with a 25-40% pay cut...
Shouldn't our motto be:
"when one delta pilot has a problem we all have a problem?" oh, wait...
Cheers
george
Telling pilots “you’ll be line-holders someday” is a diversion and not a proper response to concerns about a negative impact of reserves’ quality of life. Reserve isn’t a “junior” issue as there are pilots across the majority of the seniority list on reserve. The issue becomes even more pressing when considering the impact lower manning will have on retarding a reserve pilots ability to advance to line-holder. Parts of the proposal will effect line holders as well in having reduced ability to green slip and a higher alv...
My own personal experience isn't all that great. As a five year delta pilot i am still on reserve -- certainly not what i would have expected -- and as of the first of the month i am not even in base but commute to reserve.
My own experience pales however when i hear the stories from the captains i fly with many with 20+ years at delta barely hanging on to the left seat. Quite a few moved back to fo positions, perhaps that can be seen as a career advancement because now they are "senior line holders" with a 25-40% pay cut...
Shouldn't our motto be:
"when one delta pilot has a problem we all have a problem?" oh, wait...
Cheers
george
05-11-2012, 12:28 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
DOT!
AMR said to be ready to explore sale
Bloomberg: American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (AAMRQ) will explore strategic options that include a possible sale under an agreement with the unsecured creditors committee in its bankruptcy, people familiar with the matter said.
The process would begin this summer, before Americans exclusive right to propose a reorganization plan expires in September, said the people, who werent authorized to speak publicly.
The creditors panel pressed AMR for such an agreement so that the airlines review of its options would include studying a merger with US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), said one of the people.
*This would be a reason to have less than 60 days for MEMRAT. Bandwidth is really tightening.
AMR said to be ready to explore sale
Bloomberg: American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (AAMRQ) will explore strategic options that include a possible sale under an agreement with the unsecured creditors committee in its bankruptcy, people familiar with the matter said.
The process would begin this summer, before Americans exclusive right to propose a reorganization plan expires in September, said the people, who werent authorized to speak publicly.
The creditors panel pressed AMR for such an agreement so that the airlines review of its options would include studying a merger with US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), said one of the people.
*This would be a reason to have less than 60 days for MEMRAT. Bandwidth is really tightening.
05-11-2012, 12:32 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Wouldn't they be surprised if their management really considered all options?
Oh, wait a minute, before I gloat...
We'd be surprised also, I'm sure.
Never mind.
Oh, wait a minute, before I gloat...
We'd be surprised also, I'm sure.
Never mind.
05-11-2012, 12:33 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
FWIW folks DAL just changed its PED policy on the flight deck. This has been a long time coming.
05-11-2012, 12:50 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,929
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
George,
I'm not trying to divide the group or anything. I am pointing out the large demographic of this board. A lot of people on here are reserves at Delta. Some by choice, some just too junior. Unless you are very junior, reserve is a choice. Johnson29 was a 320FO, and probably could be a lineholder maybe in DTW, yet he put himself on 2 years of reserve in NYC on the ER. His choice. Not everyone wants that lifestyle, and one way you can change it is bidding within your means. I could fly larger, but I like not being on reserve. My choice. I don't want the reserves to be paid less or have to work a lot more, but sometimes that comes with being a reserve. During slow times, don't expect to fly a lot and make over guarantee. Over busy times, you may fly a lot. That's how it goes. What I am saying is people currently on reseve may not be in a year if we hire a bunch, and it's good to think about other things also, not just about things that surround you now. I want the whole contract to be better, believe me, but guys screaming about reserve changes is just one part of the whole group, but a large part on this board. No, I don't want manning changes, or furloughs, etc. It is good to tell ALPA what you don't like. I am just pointing out this demographic.
I'm not trying to divide the group or anything. I am pointing out the large demographic of this board. A lot of people on here are reserves at Delta. Some by choice, some just too junior. Unless you are very junior, reserve is a choice. Johnson29 was a 320FO, and probably could be a lineholder maybe in DTW, yet he put himself on 2 years of reserve in NYC on the ER. His choice. Not everyone wants that lifestyle, and one way you can change it is bidding within your means. I could fly larger, but I like not being on reserve. My choice. I don't want the reserves to be paid less or have to work a lot more, but sometimes that comes with being a reserve. During slow times, don't expect to fly a lot and make over guarantee. Over busy times, you may fly a lot. That's how it goes. What I am saying is people currently on reseve may not be in a year if we hire a bunch, and it's good to think about other things also, not just about things that surround you now. I want the whole contract to be better, believe me, but guys screaming about reserve changes is just one part of the whole group, but a large part on this board. No, I don't want manning changes, or furloughs, etc. It is good to tell ALPA what you don't like. I am just pointing out this demographic.
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