Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-23-2012, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DAL73n
There's one problem with your numbers - most of us want an improved standard of living and if you take inflation into the equation then our standard of living has barely kept pace with inflation. Also, our 2008 starting point for those salaries is the worst in Delta history - even worse than 1996 (which was referred to after the fact as POS 96 and led the way to the C2K contract because everyone was so militant). Your point being that our 2008 starting point for our salaries was acceptable. I don't.
I'm not advocating, just calculating.
05-23-2012, 05:00 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Jughead
I'll preface this by saying I'm just a line dude. Not an ALPA guy. Don't go to meetings. Not a Company guy. Don't go to Delta family fun days.
I go to work, fly my trips as safely and efficiently as possible, and come home. I cherish my time at home, but still enjoy my job.
I think I'm about as average as it gets.
I've had a couple of days to digest this TA, and without question, am a solid "no" voter based on everything I've read so far. I'll be the first to admit, I've voted "yes" in the past. I've believed ALPA had my best interest at heart...those guys are in the loop and have knowledge well beyond anything I could comprehend.
This time, it isn't happening. In order: #1 - what's the rush to get this done? I still haven't been told to my satisfaction why it was so crucial (for us) to get this thing signed off so soon. #2 - Scope. I said not one more seat should be given away. I'm sticking to that, and without question, seats are being given away here. Spin it any way you like - we're getting the crap side of the stick. #3 - pay isn't even close. Enough said. We're in the position to make huge money, and I can't believe what's being proposed is anything remotely close to the survey results.
When you buy a car, house, see an auction, watch Pawn Stars, bid on Ebay, etc, do you settle for the first offer? No, you counter with a better offer in your favor. Why would I ever consider voting for this, when my career for the next 3 to 4 years is at stake?
I go to work, fly my trips as safely and efficiently as possible, and come home. I cherish my time at home, but still enjoy my job.
I think I'm about as average as it gets.
I've had a couple of days to digest this TA, and without question, am a solid "no" voter based on everything I've read so far. I'll be the first to admit, I've voted "yes" in the past. I've believed ALPA had my best interest at heart...those guys are in the loop and have knowledge well beyond anything I could comprehend.
This time, it isn't happening. In order: #1 - what's the rush to get this done? I still haven't been told to my satisfaction why it was so crucial (for us) to get this thing signed off so soon. #2 - Scope. I said not one more seat should be given away. I'm sticking to that, and without question, seats are being given away here. Spin it any way you like - we're getting the crap side of the stick. #3 - pay isn't even close. Enough said. We're in the position to make huge money, and I can't believe what's being proposed is anything remotely close to the survey results.
When you buy a car, house, see an auction, watch Pawn Stars, bid on Ebay, etc, do you settle for the first offer? No, you counter with a better offer in your favor. Why would I ever consider voting for this, when my career for the next 3 to 4 years is at stake?
Carl
05-23-2012, 05:01 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Did you know?
The definition of FLEET includes aircraft in maintenance and operational spares.
How hard would it be for the company to park 50 jets at the TOC while the scope snapshot is taken?
The definition of FLEET includes aircraft in maintenance and operational spares.
How hard would it be for the company to park 50 jets at the TOC while the scope snapshot is taken?
05-23-2012, 05:03 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Oberon
US inflation is about 11% from 2007 until today. If it averages 3% for the next three years (it's about 2.3% right now) total inflation from 2007 until 2015 would be about 21%. The Delta pay rates including the TA from 2007 until 2015 would be about 53%.
I'm not advocating, just calculating.
I'm not advocating, just calculating.
Carl
05-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Originally Posted by johnso29
The TA prevents this exact thing.
05-23-2012, 05:05 PM
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You are correct sir.
Carl
Carl
05-23-2012, 05:10 PM
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Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by bigbusdriver
Mainline adds 10,296 seats
DCI loss 7230 seats (plus any evilQ400 planes)
Scope up or Scope down?
DCI loss 7230 seats (plus any evilQ400 planes)
Scope up or Scope down?
Everyone always says Scope is number one, not money. Here we have a deal that improves Scope and the proportion of outsourced flying, but has marginal money. And it doesn't compute for a lot of us. In fact, We've always sold scope for money, and here we're actually making a purchase.
Everyone is shiIIing themselves, because they've been caught in this contradiction.
People trying to ride the Scope issue on behalf of DPA are shiIIing themselves, because ALPA did something not even the most ardent Scope hawk thought would happen: they put negotiating capital in Section 1. Guys that said they would retire if the got medical help are shiIIing themselves, because they were hoping to see the payout for staying, and making a choice to hang out or not.
And guys always said the Reserve sytem was broken and needed fixing. But between the recent improvements and the new guarantee, Reserve isn't a second-class job anymore, and Reserve might actually become a senior winter activity, and a rewarding summer job. And guys re shiIIing themselves, of course, because we actually spent negotiating capital on, what, Reserve? Yes, we spent negotiating capital on Reserve. I sheet you not!
And everyone is looking at the marginal money, and they're shiIIing themselves, because they realize we finally did what we should have always done, which is to negotiate payrate last, and they're shiIIing themselves when they realize how much was left for that (payrates) which they, deep down, covet most.
Last but not least, guys are shiIIing themselves because they realize the entire deal was crafted by Delta with just enough money, and that we're just nervous enough about te economy, and TVM, that the math makes the deal difficult to turn down. Guys just need to turn on CNBC to start shiIIing themselves.
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
So everyone expected the usual bs, where ALPA would come back with more 76-seaters but a bigger increase to show for it, and everyone would grumble about Scope being sold, then count their money. And never even give a passing thought about what a TA looks like, where you actually purchase yourself some Scope. Which brings home the point that contracts aren't free, and since we're years away from being able to apply the leverage of a strike, our feelings have little to do with it. As some love to quote on the other forum, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate.
ALPA is like a hunting dog we sent into the field, months ago, to get a bird we didn't really want to eat. Now, it's emerging with the damn thing in its' mouth. I didn't see it coming either, to be perfectly honest.
No wonder everyone is shiIIing themselves.
Last edited by Sink r8; 05-23-2012 at 05:23 PM.
05-23-2012, 05:12 PM
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Posts: 623
Originally Posted by Sink r8
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
Are you kidding?
05-23-2012, 05:14 PM
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Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Sink r8
It's undoubtedly Scope up, but that's the problem. Everyone always says Scope is number one, not money. Here we have a deal that improves Scope and the proportion of outsourced flying, but has marginal money. And it doesn't compute for a lot of us. In fact, We've always sold scope for money, and here we're actually making a purchase.
Everyone is shiIIing themselves, because they've been caught in this contradiction.
People trying to ride the Scope issue on behalf of DPA are shiIIing themselves, because ALPA did something not even the most ardent Scope hawk thought would happen: they put negotiating capital in Section 1. Guys that said they would retire if the got medical help are shiIIing themselves, because tey were hoping to see the $ payout for staying, and making a choice to hang out. And everyone is looking at the marginal money, and they're shiIIing themselves, because they realize we finally did what we should have always done, which is to negotiate payrate last, and they're shiIIing themselves when they realize how much was left for that (payrates) which they, deep down, covet most.
Last but not least, guys are shiIIing themselves because they realize the entire deal was crafted by Delta with just enough money, and that we're just nervous enough about te economy, and TVM, that the math makes the deal difficult to turn down. Guys just need to turn on CNBC to start shiIIing themselves.
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
So everyone expected the usual bs, where ALPA would come back with more 76-seaters but a bigger increase to show for it, and everyone would grumble about Scope being sold, then count their money. And never even give a passing thought about what a TA looks like, one where you actually purchase yourself some Scope. Which brings home the point that contracts aren't free, and since we're years away from being able to apply the leverage of a strike, our feelings have little to do with it. As some love to quote on the other forum, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate.
ALPA is like a hunting dog we sent into the field, months ago, to get a bird we didn't really want to eat. Now, it's emerging with the damn thing in its' mouth. I didn't see it coming either, to be perfectly honest.
No wonder everyone is shiIIing themselves.
Everyone is shiIIing themselves, because they've been caught in this contradiction.
People trying to ride the Scope issue on behalf of DPA are shiIIing themselves, because ALPA did something not even the most ardent Scope hawk thought would happen: they put negotiating capital in Section 1. Guys that said they would retire if the got medical help are shiIIing themselves, because tey were hoping to see the $ payout for staying, and making a choice to hang out. And everyone is looking at the marginal money, and they're shiIIing themselves, because they realize we finally did what we should have always done, which is to negotiate payrate last, and they're shiIIing themselves when they realize how much was left for that (payrates) which they, deep down, covet most.
Last but not least, guys are shiIIing themselves because they realize the entire deal was crafted by Delta with just enough money, and that we're just nervous enough about te economy, and TVM, that the math makes the deal difficult to turn down. Guys just need to turn on CNBC to start shiIIing themselves.
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
So everyone expected the usual bs, where ALPA would come back with more 76-seaters but a bigger increase to show for it, and everyone would grumble about Scope being sold, then count their money. And never even give a passing thought about what a TA looks like, one where you actually purchase yourself some Scope. Which brings home the point that contracts aren't free, and since we're years away from being able to apply the leverage of a strike, our feelings have little to do with it. As some love to quote on the other forum, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate.
ALPA is like a hunting dog we sent into the field, months ago, to get a bird we didn't really want to eat. Now, it's emerging with the damn thing in its' mouth. I didn't see it coming either, to be perfectly honest.
No wonder everyone is shiIIing themselves.
Carl
05-23-2012, 05:17 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Ya know, something's been sorely lacking from the last 80 pages or so of this thread...something that unites us all....
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