Details on Delta TA
08-30-2014 | 02:17 PM
#1162
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Ed and Carl, I agree that we shouldn't allow CDOs. I think it's a camel's nose that Unfortunately, history has shown that they are no less safe than some of the other crazy clock flip flopping that we already do at mainline. I can't think of a single accident that has occurred during a CDO. I'm sure there's been one, but there is nothing consistent.
08-30-2014 | 02:26 PM
#1163
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
Guys,
I would like to point out two things:
1. The CDO fight is over - we are not getting them.
2. With the 5:15 ADG one of the main drivers for CDOs no longer exists.
If the company is going to lay us over for 30 hours they will pay us 5:15 for it without us flying ridiculous hours and crazy duty periods.
All is well on the CDO front.
Scoop
I would like to point out two things:
1. The CDO fight is over - we are not getting them.
2. With the 5:15 ADG one of the main drivers for CDOs no longer exists.
If the company is going to lay us over for 30 hours they will pay us 5:15 for it without us flying ridiculous hours and crazy duty periods.
All is well on the CDO front.
Scoop
08-30-2014 | 02:30 PM
#1164
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
08-30-2014 | 02:34 PM
#1165
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
The fact is, Carl, that they were on a trip just like we do all the time at mainline already. They were on a domestic 4-day that had all morning reports. Both the pilots had a tremendous "rest" opportunity prior to the fateful leg, and the trip had a consistent rhythm to it (didn't flip flop days and nights like we do so often at mainline). Inserting that into the CDO argument is not helping your case.
It would be really interesting to see a study on the near misses. I remember being on a CDO as a 727 captain with a DC-10 behind us on the approach to DTW. We landed on 22R and I was dead tired taxiing on the parallel toward our old NWA terminal. We hadn't switched to ground control. Heard the tower call that DC-10 that was behind us and say: "Are you sure you're lined up with the right runway?" I instantly snapped out of it and looked left to see a DC-10 performing a very low altitude go around...over Willow Run airport.
Carl
08-30-2014 | 02:37 PM
#1166
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
4 day domestics with all early departures at least give pilots the opportunity to get proper rest. CDO's do not.
It would be really interesting to see a study on the near misses. I remember being on a CDO as a 727 captain with a DC-10 behind us on the approach to DTW. We landed on 22R and I was dead tired taxiing on the parallel toward our old NWA terminal. We hadn't switched to ground control. Heard the tower call that DC-10 that was behind us and say: "Are you sure you're lined up with the right runway?" I instantly snapped out of it and looked left to see a DC-10 performing a very low altitude go around...over Willow Run airport.
Carl
It would be really interesting to see a study on the near misses. I remember being on a CDO as a 727 captain with a DC-10 behind us on the approach to DTW. We landed on 22R and I was dead tired taxiing on the parallel toward our old NWA terminal. We hadn't switched to ground control. Heard the tower call that DC-10 that was behind us and say: "Are you sure you're lined up with the right runway?" I instantly snapped out of it and looked left to see a DC-10 performing a very low altitude go around...over Willow Run airport.
Carl
Was that DC-10 on a CDO?
08-30-2014 | 02:45 PM
#1167
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
08-30-2014 | 02:54 PM
#1168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Sigh...I'll try one last time. I know 5191 was not on a CDO. I never said they were. They had the sleep opportunity, but they didn't get the rest. CDO's set up a structure whereby you're guaranteed to not even have the opportunity and be operating during circadian lows. 5191 was caused in large part by fatigue. Fatigue that is guaranteed by CDO's. Why would we ever do that?
Carl
Carl
"In April 2007, the NTSB made four further recommendations, three measures to avoid fatigue affecting the performance of air traffic controllers."
08-30-2014 | 02:55 PM
#1169
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Sigh...I'll try one last time. I know 5191 was not on a CDO. I never said they were. They had the sleep opportunity, but they didn't get the rest. CDO's set up a structure whereby you're guaranteed to not even have the opportunity and be operating during circadian lows. 5191 was caused in large part by fatigue. Fatigue that is guaranteed by CDO's. Why would we ever do that?
Carl
Carl
The NTSB did not agree that the accident was caused by fatigue, though. There were a few signs from the FO that he was fatigued, but virtually none from the CA. Of course there was the controller, too... Comair also had the practice of lining up where they line up and hitting heading sync without a heading crosscheck on the runway. No bueno.
08-30-2014 | 03:28 PM
#1170
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
From: 737n/FO
Apples and oranges. A 2 hour flight followed by 4 hours behind the door, followed by another 2 hour flight completely on the backside of the clock is different. A Europe trip has you landing at 3am or so body clock. That is vastly different than landing at 6am. A better analogy would be the allnighters from the west coast which I have also stated are extremely undesirable... You wanna look 70 when you are 55?
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