Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1717481)

There is no point in trying to make sense out of what Carl writes. As he gets more and more desperate to have some relevance somewhere, he just pumps up his story. It really is whack a mole; you debunk one story, he creates another. After some period of time he brings back story number one and claims he proved it simply because he said he proved it. There is no logic, there is no data, only propaganda. He is just a slick propagandist with no sense of integrity or ethics, he simply spews out whatever he thinks will aid his cause.

You can try to debunk his stories one by one, but it doesn't matter. For instance in this silly story he claims the NC threatened to resign. What he fails to mention is that if this occurred any MEC member worth a damn would simply say, "see you later" and get a new committee. Are there only four guys in the whole pilot group who can negotiate a contract? He can't even complete a train of thought to a logical conclusion, he just makes his accusation and then hopes some dupe buys it without really thinking it out.

In the end, he has only one idea. He thinks the representatives that were voted by the Delta pilots to the MEC are too weak and too stupid to represent the pilots. They are easily fooled by lame tricks and silly threats into buying into some evil agenda. Then the Delta pilots are too weak and too stupid to represent themselves. He can't accept their membership ratification vote and invents new excuses every week about why they voted for their contract.

Carl's answer is simple. Only he and his webboard friends have the guts and knowledge to make decisions for all of us, and so he needs to circumvent all our democratic processes and just do what he says. The tyranny of the minority. Of course he knows this will never happen, he is too much of a coward to ever actually have to stand up for a decision. He just sits behind his keyboard and barks out his tough guy stance. If he actually had to stand up and make a real decision he would wet his pants.

Therefore, he will continue to spew out his propaganda, day after day, week after week. Don't look for logic or consistency. Only look for a coward making himself look big behind a keyboard. Then you will truly understand his agenda.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1717657)

I appreciate Raptor's response as well, but let's remember this began as a question regarding the accuracy of DALPA's contract comparison. I think it's clear now that DALPA didn't show the whole picture when comparing the FDX vacation system versus ours.

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1716622)

You're doing a great job of making your point. DALPA (and their loyal supporters here) are very reticent to provide anything by which their effectiveness can be measured. That's why you're seeing these attempts at confusion and diversion. Survey results (after the contract is signed) would provide that measurement reference. Showing us our own opening position (after the contract is signed) would also do that. And it is for that very reason that they'll never be released.

The closest thing we'll ever get to measuring our union leadership performance is by looking at the vote totals of the members.

Carl

Originally Posted by Raptor (Post 1716641)

I'm a FedEx pilot and just enjoy browsing the forums--so I'm not trying to troll this. But, I'm curious about this inability to view openers at Delta. At FedEx our contract openers are available for all the FedEx pilots to see. Since we are ALPA too, I don't think there is any policy against having contract opening positions published? After all, the company gets these openers so why shouldn't the pilots too? I don't understand why initial positions aren't available to the Delta pilots? Can anyone tell me why this is so?

Once negotiations begin however, we don't get any specific information on the negotiations other that what sections they are bargaining this session, if there's progress on a section, which sections are essentially complete, etc. We get some information on big items that are in contention, but that's it until we see a TA for a vote.

Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1717556)

People voted yes because the sales job caused them to doubt their resolve.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1717462)

Here's what I asked you apologists to re-read:



This isn't for you guys because you're incapable of independent thought. This is for the lurkers and guys who think for themselves. What I wrote above is absolutely correct. Two of the four negotiators (members of the MEC administration) were removed right after C2012. Strategic planning guys (members of the MEC administration) were removed right after C2012. Communications guy (members of the MEC administration) were removed right after C2012. The MEC chairman (member of the MEC administration) was removed right after C2012. My statement above stands. But do continue to refer to my statements as false. It does your credibility a ton of good here. :rolleyes:

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1716994)

Last time, our negotiating committee and MEC administrators behaved very badly and were removed from their positions as a result.
Carl

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1717573)

Spin it however you want, Carl.

Six months after C2012 was ratified, the MEC Chairman lost his bid for re-election. The other officers were re-elected. The new MEC Chairman reappointed, with the MEC's approval, some of those who had been closely involved with C2012 and did not retain others.

Two months later, the NC Chairman and one member were re-elected. The other two were not. Every rep who had voted against the TA, plus a few who had initially opposed it, voted in favor of these two NC members. This includes your reps.

Facts. No spin. Ask your reps about it.

Originally Posted by LowPhlyer (Post 1717758)

Just to make a point about "MEC Administration":

The ONLY committee chairman you listed that is directly elected by the elected representatives is the Negotiating Chairman. The rest of the Chairmen are APPOINTED by the MEC Chairman and then OK'd by a majority vote of the reps (most times these appointments are a "group" appointment with the ratification vote...thus no individual vetting by the reps gets to happen).

I consider a chairman appointed...a member of the Administration.

LP

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1717789)

It would also be worthy to note how many additional "days" you get off with the amount of vacation you get. A 7 day "week" of our vacation usually only gets someone 3 maybe 4 extra days off. 6 hours a day is very powerful and actually gets you a full week off or slightly more. We don't need more vacation we need better vacation. 5 hours a day should be the minimum, and until/unless that happens, we're wizzing in the wind about the 6th week and touch drop fantasies that are never coming back.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1717857)

We're talking past each other Alan. There's no question that what I've stated is true.

The main point is guys like slowplay, alfaromeo, hazzard, pinho, etc., never got back...yet.

Carl

Originally Posted by thefoxsays (Post 1717881)

Wow, Delta's contract sucks. What is good about this contract? I've found nothing so far except the pay is better than my regional.

Just got bit by the "*" rotation trip removal feature.

Okay, rant over.

Schedule survey to come. I hope folks read the contract comparisons.