Details on Delta TA
07-28-2014, 06:42 AM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
all openers are a detailed list of what both sides want - right down to the percentages of pay you are asking for, etc. Great detail on both sides. They are NEVER broad based or conceptual. Never.
Tell you what -- let's both run for NC the next time around. Then we'll both know for sure.
07-28-2014, 07:06 AM
#192
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
Unfortunately, you're back to making statements of fact of which you have no personal knowledge. I believe just as strongly as you do that this was in fact what our NC passed across the table as our opener, and that specifics were added to each section as time went on. It is my understanding that specifics on value pieces such as pay are not exchanged until the end game.
Tell you what -- let's both run for NC the next time around. Then we'll both know for sure.
Tell you what -- let's both run for NC the next time around. Then we'll both know for sure.
By the MEC claiming that all openers are conceptual (a flat out lie), they get to hide from the question of exactly what we are asking for. Did we ask for 35 additional 76 seat RJ's to be flown by non-Delta pilots and settle for 70 additional? Did we ask pay increases of 5/9/4/4 and settle on 4/8/3/3? We'll never know because the MEC has decided they will never release the opener to the pilots. FWIW before Delta, I've always received a detailed report of our opening position section by section as soon as it was exchanged with management. You knew exactly what we were asking for.
Carl
07-28-2014, 07:11 AM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Once again we have an argument framed around a premise of propaganda. First, we have a claim that a TA was reached by the Negotiating Committee with Administration help. Here is what the policy manual states:
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
07-28-2014, 07:12 AM
#194
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by shiznit
Denny, Scambo, DAL88, and gzsg,
Great thoughts from the group, and it's significant that "more percentage" in the 401k isn't as big a thing to the group (not that we wouldn't still like it)since the rising rates and 415c limit is a factor for a number of captains (I'd like it to be a factor for FO's too!).
With higher rates that multiply onto W2's it will do the work needed like DAL88 says. Would a 16-18%? 401k count toward the goal of "rates" restoration in the future then or not? It is another way to hide it from other employee groups, yet like Denny says it is just another line of his taxable income once the 415c limit is reached that is part of our W2's.
My math says 18.25% above 2015 to equal 2004 rates (for 7ERB).
As a purely hypothetical example let's say we somehow do something similar to C12 (but in a better way!): 6.5% early/9.5% on amendable/ 4%/4% (with no PS change) and another 2% into the 401k... That is a combined raise on the amendable date of 18.95%, or does 401k play no role in the restoration for you?
(I'm not allowed to include any PS talk in the "restoration equation", thanks 80!
)
Would that meet one of your thresholds gzsg? (We need other stuff fixed, but this discussion is about Section 3 and 26)
Great thoughts from the group, and it's significant that "more percentage" in the 401k isn't as big a thing to the group (not that we wouldn't still like it)since the rising rates and 415c limit is a factor for a number of captains (I'd like it to be a factor for FO's too!).
With higher rates that multiply onto W2's it will do the work needed like DAL88 says. Would a 16-18%? 401k count toward the goal of "rates" restoration in the future then or not? It is another way to hide it from other employee groups, yet like Denny says it is just another line of his taxable income once the 415c limit is reached that is part of our W2's.
My math says 18.25% above 2015 to equal 2004 rates (for 7ERB).
As a purely hypothetical example let's say we somehow do something similar to C12 (but in a better way!): 6.5% early/9.5% on amendable/ 4%/4% (with no PS change) and another 2% into the 401k... That is a combined raise on the amendable date of 18.95%, or does 401k play no role in the restoration for you?
(I'm not allowed to include any PS talk in the "restoration equation", thanks 80!
)Would that meet one of your thresholds gzsg? (We need other stuff fixed, but this discussion is about Section 3 and 26)
The date of signing hourly increases are key to success and well as leaving PS untouched. If we accomplish this we cannot lose.
Jerry
07-28-2014, 07:16 AM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Once again we have an argument framed around a premise of propaganda. First, we have a claim that a TA was reached by the Negotiating Committee with Administration help. Here is what the policy manual states:
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
On C2012 the MEC direction was ignored on hourly pay rates and the reduction in profit sharing.
That's not right and it never will be.
Jerry
07-28-2014, 07:18 AM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: B-777 F/O
Posts: 119
Pay Banding
As an outsider looking in who works for place with 2 pay bands, narrow and wide, it is more complicated than some might think.
As to pilot movement and training costs. Whether a pilot changes planes or not is complicated in itself. The reasons are far more than pay alone. Schedules, domiciles/ commutes, equipment,layover cities and more. Sure pay enters into it but the reasons for changing planes are many.
As to pilot movement and training costs. Whether a pilot changes planes or not is complicated in itself. The reasons are far more than pay alone. Schedules, domiciles/ commutes, equipment,layover cities and more. Sure pay enters into it but the reasons for changing planes are many.
07-28-2014, 07:22 AM
#197
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Once again we have an argument framed around a premise of propaganda. First, we have a claim that a TA was reached by the Negotiating Committee with Administration help. Here is what the policy manual states:
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
Of course the NC and the Administration reached a TA. That is what the Policy Manual charges them to do. What we have is a guy who doesn't like the democratically chosen method of doing business, so when the properly elected officers do EXACTLY what the democratically chosen policy manual tells them to do, it is only corrupt because some small minority don't like it. That is not corruption that is a tyranny of the minority who don't like that they lost elections and so they claim the system is corrupt.
The second claim is that there was insufficient effort put into negotiations. Here is a screen shot from the folder that had our contract language back and forth.
As you can see, there are about 700 files and 66 megabytes of data to cover 28 sections of the contract. That is about 25 separate negotiating positions for each section of the contract. In actuality, some sections only needed a few changes while others had 40 or more different positions. This doesn't include negotiations at the end game which had multiple turns through term sheets or verbal back and forth.
This is how negotiations have been done at Delta for at least 26 years. This how C2K was negotiated.
If you don't like it, get the damn votes and change the Policy Manual. Otherwise, we are not a democracy, we are just being tyrannized by a minority of pilots who can't win a vote and so they resort to propaganda to try to get their way.
Now go and find more meaningless screen shots to post as you feverishly work to repair your reputation.
Carl
07-28-2014, 07:25 AM
#198
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
We've already been through this Alfa. The reps that fired you and the other bad actors were clear that it wasn't a policy manual violation that occurred, it was a trust violation that occurred. That trust violation occurred during multiple teleconferences where the reps gave direction and you folks ignored that direction.
Now go and find more meaningless screen shots to post as you feverishly work to repair your reputation.
Carl
Now go and find more meaningless screen shots to post as you feverishly work to repair your reputation.
Carl
That's just pathetic. He's done more for this group than you ever will.
07-28-2014, 07:36 AM
#200
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The question is, how much of it was bad? After C2012, the reps decided.
Carl
Carl
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