Whether any of us has an issue with it is immaterial. The reality is that it's just never done that way. You can talk conceptually all you want, but negotiations don't begin until there's an official exchange of openers. Those openers are very specific and very, very detailed. It is from those opening points where both sides must move toward the opposition or you have bad faith negotiations. If one side ever came for the exchange of openers with a "conceptual opener", the other side would almost certainly get up and say, " give us a call when you're ready to negotiate and be held accountable to an opening position."

But let's say for the sake of argument that this most unusual "conceptual" opener of ours really was accepted by management. At some point, you actually have to ask for what you want in specific detail. Once that happens, why not release it to the pilots? What's the harm? What's our union afraid of? Even after TA2012 turned into Contract 2012, still no idea of what we specifically asked for. I know you're OK with that, but many of us are not. As I've said earlier, it's never been done in my personal history of 35 years in ALPA. Why now?

Putting flesh on bones would never be considered bad faith. Only moving negatively away from your opening position. That's why nobody would allow you to show up without a detailed opening position so specific movement could be measured.

Carl

 

Will my reps have any insight into the shadow MEC 's new strategy direction? I ask because you don't include DTW in the list of reps to call.

Carl

 

I'm interested in trying to find out facts. That's why I'll be calling reps. Maybe you could call that CVG captain rep and tell us what he says.

Carl

 

Where are you hearing these official talking points?

 

While Jerry can be a tad dramatic at times, I have heard the same from one of the ATL reps. Maybe not verbatim, but pretty close to my recollection. Need a quick deal because the downturn is coming, don't recall anything though of trading PS for hard raises.

 

He makes them up. He did it on the old forum all the time.

 

Carl

The way it works is the admin formulates the plan. They share it with the yes voting guys on the MEC (I.e. Randy and Buzz) they spread the word verbally (never in writing).

They know all they need is a thin majority on the MEC to pass the deal. Then the repeat sell machine as C2012.

They have control of the message and the threats.

I have heard this downturn 2017 from more than 10 sources.

What downturn???

Jerry

 

Can't wait to be wrong.

We have been frozen since 9/11. We don't need or desire longer freezes and more concessions.

Jerry

 

Alan

The yes men on the MEC (Randy, Buzz, etc.) are telling their pilots about the 2017 downturn and the need for a quick deal. Only verbally, never in writing.

Our economy is just getting warmed up. Can these guys not read?

Today we are over 30,000 trucker short. Tens of thousands of welder short and on and on and on.

In Texas you can get a job in 67 seconds and a room at the Super 8 is $300 in some Texas cities.

In 2013 we provided enough oil to power over 90% of our needs.

Why are these puppets repeating and selling the latest management talking points?

Who's side are they on?

Call all of them.

Ask: do you believe and have you told any pilots there will be a downturn in 2017?

Are you willing to make concessions for longer freezes?

Are you willing to further reduce our profit sharing?

Alan you know each and every rep.

Call them all and show everyone how wrong I am and how I make stuff up.

Jerry

 

How can anyone say, in July of 2014, that there will be a downturn in 2017, that is just nuts.

Sure, there -might- be a downturn, but there also might be an upturn.

And a Black Swan might fly out of my ***...

Flip a coin, you have just as good a chance (50%) of being right!

Listen to me, I'm an Economic Expert!

Oh no, wait, I'm just an airline pilot! BUT BUT BUT...

The Economy may, or may not, improve, or it may even decline, in 2017. We had better capitulate NOW, before it's too late!!

Because...THE SKY IS FALLING...wait...it's not?

Well then...THE SKY COULD BE FALLING....in 2017!