Details on Delta TA
08-04-2014, 04:17 PM
#321
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
Good God, man!!! Paranoia will destroy ya!! I have to think that pay banding is in the comparison to that we can adequately address it via our input in the survey.
While I agree that it's a bit of a stretch to call what we have pay banding in comparison to that at AA and UAL, it certainly is a small step in that direction. Over the past few years, ALPA has brought the 737-700 up to the -800 rates and the M88 up to M90. Meanwhile, there has certainly been a call to bring the M88/90 rates up to that of other NB aircraft, and to bring the -900 and the 321 up to the 757 rate.
All of that constitutes some amount of pay banding, and I for one will certainly use all that info to provide my input to the survey and to my reps directly.
While I agree that it's a bit of a stretch to call what we have pay banding in comparison to that at AA and UAL, it certainly is a small step in that direction. Over the past few years, ALPA has brought the 737-700 up to the -800 rates and the M88 up to M90. Meanwhile, there has certainly been a call to bring the M88/90 rates up to that of other NB aircraft, and to bring the -900 and the 321 up to the 757 rate.
All of that constitutes some amount of pay banding, and I for one will certainly use all that info to provide my input to the survey and to my reps directly.
I see many things lowering expectations and zero leadership on attaining a "historic" C2015 as promised by the MEC in True Headings 14-2.
Next month the survey will be out. In the interest of fairness, would you please point out all the leadership communications that raise our line pilots expectations to achieve a historic and unprecedented agreement?
To me without leadership, what does this historic agreement look like?
Where is the chart with the May 2004 rates plus inflation?
Where is the chart with the billions in concessions we have taken since 9/11?
Where is the MEC statement that Delta executive management compensation is up 300% to 700% since Chapter 11?
Thanks and looking forward to your highlighting our leaders communication on our historic PWA.
Jerry
08-04-2014, 05:29 PM
#322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by gzsg
Alan
I see many things lowering expectations and zero leadership on attaining a "historic" C2015 as promised by the MEC in True Headings 14-2.
You have invented things in your own mind that you feel could lower expectations. "Feeling" and "demonstrating" are not the same thing. I'm sorry you believe your fellow pilots are incapable of examining their environment and developing their own individual goals, and how to work together to further the group.
Next month the survey will be out. In the interest of fairness, would you please point out all the leadership communications that raise our line pilots expectations to achieve a historic and unprecedented agreement?
I think you just mentioned one above.... yet I still stand by the fact that Delta Pilots are intelligent and can set their own standards and work together as a group to achieve them.
To me without leadership, what does this historic agreement look like?
The failed attempt by you and the donut brigade are definitely without leadership, and unless you close it down ASAP the "historic agreement" you so repetitively desire will be even more difficult to achieve. Go ask a FedEx pilot how destructive and hindering the FPA was to their ALPA negotiators and contract efforts in the 90's. FedEx ALPA History
Where is the chart with the May 2004 rates plus inflation?
What was your seat/year/rate in 2004? What would that be with inflation? You tell me first and we will work from there. Rates are only one part of a very complex contract... Plus, why limit ourselves to that?
Where is the chart with the billions in concessions we have taken since 9/11?
I wish it mattered, but it doesn't. No one in the public sphere cares about whiny, overpaid pilots. Emotion doesn't put more money in my checking account.
Where is the MEC statement that Delta executive management compensation is up 300% to 700% since Chapter 11?
Who cares... It doesn't matter to the courts, the NMB, or the public. It's an emotional request, why waste the time and energy. There are real issues to deal with. Emotion doesn't put more money in my checking account.
Thanks and looking forward to your highlighting our leaders communication on our historic PWA.
Jerry
I see many things lowering expectations and zero leadership on attaining a "historic" C2015 as promised by the MEC in True Headings 14-2.
You have invented things in your own mind that you feel could lower expectations. "Feeling" and "demonstrating" are not the same thing. I'm sorry you believe your fellow pilots are incapable of examining their environment and developing their own individual goals, and how to work together to further the group.
Next month the survey will be out. In the interest of fairness, would you please point out all the leadership communications that raise our line pilots expectations to achieve a historic and unprecedented agreement?
I think you just mentioned one above.... yet I still stand by the fact that Delta Pilots are intelligent and can set their own standards and work together as a group to achieve them.
To me without leadership, what does this historic agreement look like?
The failed attempt by you and the donut brigade are definitely without leadership, and unless you close it down ASAP the "historic agreement" you so repetitively desire will be even more difficult to achieve. Go ask a FedEx pilot how destructive and hindering the FPA was to their ALPA negotiators and contract efforts in the 90's. FedEx ALPA History
Where is the chart with the May 2004 rates plus inflation?
What was your seat/year/rate in 2004? What would that be with inflation? You tell me first and we will work from there. Rates are only one part of a very complex contract... Plus, why limit ourselves to that?
Where is the chart with the billions in concessions we have taken since 9/11?
I wish it mattered, but it doesn't. No one in the public sphere cares about whiny, overpaid pilots. Emotion doesn't put more money in my checking account.
Where is the MEC statement that Delta executive management compensation is up 300% to 700% since Chapter 11?
Who cares... It doesn't matter to the courts, the NMB, or the public. It's an emotional request, why waste the time and energy. There are real issues to deal with. Emotion doesn't put more money in my checking account.
Thanks and looking forward to your highlighting our leaders communication on our historic PWA.
Jerry
08-04-2014, 05:56 PM
#323
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by shiznit
Where is the chart with the May 2004 rates plus inflation?
What was your seat/year/rate in 2004? What would that be with inflation? You tell me first and we will work from there. Rates are only one part of a very complex contract... Plus, why limit ourselves to that?
What was your seat/year/rate in 2004? What would that be with inflation? You tell me first and we will work from there. Rates are only one part of a very complex contract... Plus, why limit ourselves to that?
Bottom line is how much do you make and how many days do you work to make it. There are certainly other factors but rates are by far the biggest determinant. Our current rates are a 34% pay CUT to the buying power of our 2004 rates. That's BIGGER than the 32.5% pay cut we took in an extreme emergency to try and save Delta from filing bankruptcy. And you're worried about limiting ourselves by comparing our current rates to C2K buying power?!
That's total BS. You're not worried about that... it's an excuse.It's now 10 years later. Delta emerged from bankruptcy a little over 7 years ago. We are leading the industry in almost every metric, including profits of multiple billions. We have an outlook for more of the same or even better. The industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profitability going forward and less of the up and down roller coaster that most of us have experienced our entire careers. Things have never looked better for our company and our industry. Yet we're being paid as if Delta was in a dire financial situation on the verge of bankruptcy! It doesn't get any more relevant (or inappropriate) than that!
Why do you constantly want to sweep that under the rug? For once have some self respect for our profession and don't be afraid to call a spade a spade. If it ruffles some feathers, then so be it.
08-04-2014, 06:44 PM
#324
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Excuses, excuses, and more excuses. 2004 rates plus inflation ARE relevant. In terms of the standard of living afforded by our pay rates, that gives us an "apples to apples" comparison to where we were throughout most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's.
Bottom line is how much do you make and how many days do you work to make it. There are certainly other factors but rates are by far the biggest determinant. Our current rates are a 34% pay CUT to the buying power of our 2004 rates. That's BIGGER than the 32.5% pay cut we took in an extreme emergency to try and save Delta from filing bankruptcy. And you're worried about limiting ourselves by comparing our current rates to C2K buying power?! That's total BS. You're not worried about that... it's an excuse.
It's now 10 years later. Delta emerged from bankruptcy a little over 7 years ago. We are leading the industry in almost every metric, including profits of multiple billions. We have an outlook for more of the same or even better. The industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profitability going forward and less of the up and down roller coaster that most of us have experienced our entire careers. Things have never looked better for our company and our industry. Yet we're being paid as if Delta was in a dire financial situation on the verge of bankruptcy! It doesn't get any more relevant (or inappropriate) than that!
Why do you constantly want to sweep that under the rug? For once have some self respect for our profession and don't be afraid to call a spade a spade. If it ruffles some feathers, then so be it.
Bottom line is how much do you make and how many days do you work to make it. There are certainly other factors but rates are by far the biggest determinant. Our current rates are a 34% pay CUT to the buying power of our 2004 rates. That's BIGGER than the 32.5% pay cut we took in an extreme emergency to try and save Delta from filing bankruptcy. And you're worried about limiting ourselves by comparing our current rates to C2K buying power?!
That's total BS. You're not worried about that... it's an excuse.It's now 10 years later. Delta emerged from bankruptcy a little over 7 years ago. We are leading the industry in almost every metric, including profits of multiple billions. We have an outlook for more of the same or even better. The industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profitability going forward and less of the up and down roller coaster that most of us have experienced our entire careers. Things have never looked better for our company and our industry. Yet we're being paid as if Delta was in a dire financial situation on the verge of bankruptcy! It doesn't get any more relevant (or inappropriate) than that!
Why do you constantly want to sweep that under the rug? For once have some self respect for our profession and don't be afraid to call a spade a spade. If it ruffles some feathers, then so be it.
Carl
08-04-2014, 07:58 PM
#325
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Excuses, excuses, and more excuses. 2004 rates plus inflation ARE relevant. In terms of the standard of living afforded by our pay rates, that gives us an "apples to apples" comparison to where we were throughout most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's.
Bottom line is how much do you make and how many days do you work to make it. There are certainly other factors but rates are by far the biggest determinant. Our current rates are a 34% pay CUT to the buying power of our 2004 rates. That's BIGGER than the 32.5% pay cut we took in an extreme emergency to try and save Delta from filing bankruptcy. And you're worried about limiting ourselves by comparing our current rates to C2K buying power?! That's total BS. You're not worried about that... it's an excuse.
It's now 10 years later. Delta emerged from bankruptcy a little over 7 years ago. We are leading the industry in almost every metric, including profits of multiple billions. We have an outlook for more of the same or even better. The industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profitability going forward and less of the up and down roller coaster that most of us have experienced our entire careers. Things have never looked better for our company and our industry. Yet we're being paid as if Delta was in a dire financial situation on the verge of bankruptcy! It doesn't get any more relevant (or inappropriate) than that!
Why do you constantly want to sweep that under the rug? For once have some self respect for our profession and don't be afraid to call a spade a spade. If it ruffles some feathers, then so be it.
Bottom line is how much do you make and how many days do you work to make it. There are certainly other factors but rates are by far the biggest determinant. Our current rates are a 34% pay CUT to the buying power of our 2004 rates. That's BIGGER than the 32.5% pay cut we took in an extreme emergency to try and save Delta from filing bankruptcy. And you're worried about limiting ourselves by comparing our current rates to C2K buying power?!
That's total BS. You're not worried about that... it's an excuse.It's now 10 years later. Delta emerged from bankruptcy a little over 7 years ago. We are leading the industry in almost every metric, including profits of multiple billions. We have an outlook for more of the same or even better. The industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profitability going forward and less of the up and down roller coaster that most of us have experienced our entire careers. Things have never looked better for our company and our industry. Yet we're being paid as if Delta was in a dire financial situation on the verge of bankruptcy! It doesn't get any more relevant (or inappropriate) than that!
Why do you constantly want to sweep that under the rug? For once have some self respect for our profession and don't be afraid to call a spade a spade. If it ruffles some feathers, then so be it.
They control the votes by controlling the information. Which would be fine if their agenda were significantly improving the PWA, but it's not.
I am very impressed by the LEC communications as of late, the MEC.....more of the same spin. At least now it is a lot easier to see through.
08-05-2014, 03:31 AM
#326
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by shiznit
I love your passion, I really do... I don't find your constant attempts to play the emotional card productive, nor your repetitive rumors you constantly tout as fact helpful to improving the quality of our contract.
Apologize for aiming so low.
I love your "why limit ourselves to that" comment.
May 2004 rates plus inflation is not enough. I agree 100%.
Where we disagree is I believe a leader should lead, like John Malone used to. We have no leader. Just charts showing a downturn in the economy in 2017. Charts showing our rates plus profit sharing.
Even the commitment to a "historic" C2015 is on page 3 of True Headings 14-2.
We both know where this ends.
We fund pathetic hourly increases like C2012 with reductions in profit sharing. I predict a straight 10%, reduced from 20% for above $2.5 billion in profits.
We agree to longer freezes and other training concessions costing us jobs in every category.
And degradation of our sick leave.
Followed by a similar all out sales job mirroring C2012. Threats, empty promises and reckless projections.
Hope I am way off Shiz.
Jerry
08-05-2014, 03:38 AM
#327
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Flamer
It amuses me when people pretend that ALL DAL pilots are exceptional critical thinkers, constantly up-to-date on our contract and peer PWAs and are completely un-vectored by the alpa propaganda machine. Alpa thrives because they control all of the information to a great percentage of the trusting pilot group.
They control the votes by controlling the information. Which would be fine if their agenda were significantly improving the PWA, but it's not.
They control the votes by controlling the information. Which would be fine if their agenda were significantly improving the PWA, but it's not.
Originally Posted by Flamer
I am very impressed by the LEC communications as of late, the MEC.....more of the same spin. At least now it is a lot easier to see through.
08-05-2014, 04:02 AM
#328
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by shiznit
I love your passion, I really do... I don't find your constant attempts to play the emotional card productive, nor your repetitive rumors you constantly tout as fact helpful to improving the quality of our contract.
You asked my seat/year/rate in 2004.
757A/19th year/$256/hr plus inflation you do the math.
This was 10 years ago so I'm not positive. John Parker posted one of my NWA forum posts from 6 years ago on the other forum so I'm sure you can verify the data above for us.
Date of signing 20% plus some inflation is more than fair. It's not enough, but it is fair. Assuming we don't touch our profit sharing.
Jerry
08-05-2014, 05:05 AM
#329
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,921
Originally Posted by gzsg
Shiz
Apologize for aiming so low.
I love your "why limit ourselves to that" comment.
May 2004 rates plus inflation is not enough. I agree 100%.
Where we disagree is I believe a leader should lead, like John Malone used to. We have no leader. Just charts showing a downturn in the economy in 2017. Charts showing our rates plus profit sharing.
Even the commitment to a "historic" C2015 is on page 3 of True Headings 14-2.
We both know where this ends.
We fund pathetic hourly increases like C2012 with reductions in profit sharing. I predict a straight 10%, reduced from 20% for above $2.5 billion in profits.
We agree to longer freezes and other training concessions costing us jobs in every category.
And degradation of our sick leave.
Followed by a similar all out sales job mirroring C2012. Threats, empty promises and reckless projections.
Hope I am way off Shiz.
Jerry
Apologize for aiming so low.
I love your "why limit ourselves to that" comment.
May 2004 rates plus inflation is not enough. I agree 100%.
Where we disagree is I believe a leader should lead, like John Malone used to. We have no leader. Just charts showing a downturn in the economy in 2017. Charts showing our rates plus profit sharing.
Even the commitment to a "historic" C2015 is on page 3 of True Headings 14-2.
We both know where this ends.
We fund pathetic hourly increases like C2012 with reductions in profit sharing. I predict a straight 10%, reduced from 20% for above $2.5 billion in profits.
We agree to longer freezes and other training concessions costing us jobs in every category.
And degradation of our sick leave.
Followed by a similar all out sales job mirroring C2012. Threats, empty promises and reckless projections.
Hope I am way off Shiz.
Jerry
08-05-2014, 05:38 AM
#330
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by gzsg
...would you please point out all the leadership communications that raise our line pilots expectations to achieve a historic and unprecedented agreement?
PUB events -- MD regularly talks about the fact that, while we've made progress over the past ten years to recoup some of our losses, we still have a long way to go
Contract History -- the financial timeline in the front shows us finally having reached a similar level of profitability (relative to size) as Delta had prior to C2K, and being well above that level in actual dollars; now that our profitability is at or above where we were in the late 90's, I expect similar results
Contract History Summary -- the 777A pay chart shows what I saw in MD's PUB presentation -- although we've made some progress toward restoration, we're not nearly finished, as you have to include profit sharing to even get us close to 2004 in real dollars, let alone restore that year's buying power; I expect significant strides toward that goal
Contract Comparison -- with CAL and USAir gone, the industry landscape is MUCH better than it was for C2012; our major competitors are no longer dragging us down, but pushing us up instead, and they have book rates that are higher than ours in the year or two after our amendable date; this leads me to expect increases significantly greater than those in C2012
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
