Details on Delta TA
09-24-2014 | 04:01 PM
#2201
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
"DALPA operative" and the other terms are slang for behavior that is disturbingly clear. It is a behavior that continually looks for ways to explain away very troubling events:
1. Moak stating that ALPA's contract demands won't prove onerous to airlines.
2. Moak stating ALPA's large carrier contracts are mature and radical overhauls are not in the cards.
3. Moak stating you can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member, but you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts.
4. Donatelli being utterly silent regarding Moak's comments.
5. Reps stating that Moak has no reason to revise his comments because he didn't say anything wrong.
6. Richard stating that labor risk has been taken completely off the table at Delta.
7. Etc., etc.
When line pilots like you, Oberon, sailingfun, alfaromeo shiznit, etc., consistently look for ways to put a benign spin on these statements, it looks very suspicious. It looks like you've been co-opted for one of any number of reasons that are typical of the Ford and Harrison anti-labor law firm. It's hard to miss it when you guys behave this way. The only question is why you do it.
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
1. Moak stating that ALPA's contract demands won't prove onerous to airlines.
2. Moak stating ALPA's large carrier contracts are mature and radical overhauls are not in the cards.
3. Moak stating you can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member, but you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts.
4. Donatelli being utterly silent regarding Moak's comments.
5. Reps stating that Moak has no reason to revise his comments because he didn't say anything wrong.
6. Richard stating that labor risk has been taken completely off the table at Delta.
7. Etc., etc.
When line pilots like you, Oberon, sailingfun, alfaromeo shiznit, etc., consistently look for ways to put a benign spin on these statements, it looks very suspicious. It looks like you've been co-opted for one of any number of reasons that are typical of the Ford and Harrison anti-labor law firm. It's hard to miss it when you guys behave this way. The only question is why you do it.
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
Sorry to disappoint you, Carl, but I've been co-opted by no one. I have my opinions, just as everyone else does. They are mine and no one else's, just as I assume that yours are, and I express them from time to time as the mood strikes me. I have no particular purpose in doing so, other than to spend a few idle moments among my colleagues discussing issues important to us all.
Last edited by Alan Shore; 09-24-2014 at 04:13 PM.
09-24-2014 | 04:08 PM
#2202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
"DALPA operative" and the other terms are slang for behavior that is disturbingly clear. It is a behavior that continually looks for ways to explain away very troubling events:
1. Moak stating that ALPA's contract demands won't prove onerous to airlines.
2. Moak stating ALPA's large carrier contracts are mature and radical overhauls are not in the cards.
3. Moak stating you can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member, but you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts.
4. Donatelli being utterly silent regarding Moak's comments.
5. Reps stating that Moak has no reason to revise his comments because he didn't say anything wrong.
6. Richard stating that labor risk has been taken completely off the table at Delta.
7. Etc., etc.
When line pilots like you, Oberon, sailingfun, alfaromeo shiznit, etc., consistently look for ways to put a benign spin on these statements, it looks very suspicious. It looks like you've been co-opted for one of any number of reasons that are typical of the Ford and Harrison anti-labor law firm. It's hard to miss it when you guys behave this way. The only question is why you do it.
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
1. Moak stating that ALPA's contract demands won't prove onerous to airlines.
2. Moak stating ALPA's large carrier contracts are mature and radical overhauls are not in the cards.
3. Moak stating you can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member, but you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts.
4. Donatelli being utterly silent regarding Moak's comments.
5. Reps stating that Moak has no reason to revise his comments because he didn't say anything wrong.
6. Richard stating that labor risk has been taken completely off the table at Delta.
7. Etc., etc.
When line pilots like you, Oberon, sailingfun, alfaromeo shiznit, etc., consistently look for ways to put a benign spin on these statements, it looks very suspicious. It looks like you've been co-opted for one of any number of reasons that are typical of the Ford and Harrison anti-labor law firm. It's hard to miss it when you guys behave this way. The only question is why you do it.
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
09-24-2014 | 04:14 PM
#2203
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Well said. These guys jump at every opportunity to publicly state why to expect less and downplay Moak's asinine remarks....remarks that clearly hurt our cause. Yet all in the same breath they cry from the rooftops that we cannot release the survey results because it will show our hand at the poker table. Ridonkerous!
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
09-24-2014 | 04:18 PM
#2204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
By Justin Bachman August 13, 2014
With U.S. airlines awash in cash these days, one of the big questions in the industry has become how much of that wealth will pilots seek next year when contracts at several carriers come up for renegotiation.
Contracts at four large airlines—Delta Air Lines (DAL), Hawaiian (HA), Spirit (SAVE), and Jazz Aviation, a regional operator for Air Canada—are up for talks in 2015, covering nearly 15,000 pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union in North America. JetBlue Airways’ (JBLU) 2,500 pilots are also hoping to secure their first contract next year, after voting this spring to join ALPA.
U.S. carriers are producing enormous profits after years of consolidation. In the most recent quarter, the six largest U.S. carriers collectively earned $3.97 billion, with American, Southwest, Alaska Airlines (ALK), and JetBlue all reporting record net income for the period. U.S. carriers lost almost $60 billion from 2000 to 2009.
“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. “I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good.”
With U.S. airlines awash in cash these days, one of the big questions in the industry has become how much of that wealth will pilots seek next year when contracts at several carriers come up for renegotiation.
Contracts at four large airlines—Delta Air Lines (DAL), Hawaiian (HA), Spirit (SAVE), and Jazz Aviation, a regional operator for Air Canada—are up for talks in 2015, covering nearly 15,000 pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union in North America. JetBlue Airways’ (JBLU) 2,500 pilots are also hoping to secure their first contract next year, after voting this spring to join ALPA.
U.S. carriers are producing enormous profits after years of consolidation. In the most recent quarter, the six largest U.S. carriers collectively earned $3.97 billion, with American, Southwest, Alaska Airlines (ALK), and JetBlue all reporting record net income for the period. U.S. carriers lost almost $60 billion from 2000 to 2009.
“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. “I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good.”
The author describes Moak as visiting Wall Street to "assure analysts...contract demands don't prove onerous". Moak didn't say this but I'll take the author at his word. I don't think our contract demands will prove onerous to airlines either. They are making billions of dollars and they can afford more expensive contracts.
Southwest expects to pay out $228 million to workers this year in profit shares, nearly double the amount from 2013. United paid $190 million in February tied to its income last year. (Delta and United make the payments on Valentine’s Day.) Several airlines also pay workers monthly incentives for meeting performance targets, such as more on-time arrivals and improvements on the rate of mishandled bags. United paid employees an extra $125 for meeting on-time arrival and departure goals in July. Delta says it paid nearly $92 million last year in similar incentives. “The employees are now coupled to the airlines,” says Moak, a Delta captain who is stepping down at year’s end after four years as president.
Of course, all the cash an airline generates can go to shareholders or employees, and that basic dynamic is likely to play out in the 2015 contract negotiations—especially at Delta and Spirit, both industry leaders when it comes to superior financial returns. Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.
Of course, all the cash an airline generates can go to shareholders or employees, and that basic dynamic is likely to play out in the 2015 contract negotiations—especially at Delta and Spirit, both industry leaders when it comes to superior financial returns. Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.
Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.
"There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue". Of course there will be. Companies are making a lot of money and can afford to pay us.
"You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member...you’re working on the margins". I can't make sense of this. "$2 or $2.05" has no context. I'm not sure what "margins" he's talking about. The margins of $4 billion profit?
09-24-2014 | 05:01 PM
#2205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
When line pilots like you, Oberon, sailingfun, alfaromeo shiznit, etc., consistently look for ways to put a benign spin on these statements, it looks very suspicious. It looks like you've been co-opted for one of any number of reasons that are typical of the Ford and Harrison anti-labor law firm. It's hard to miss it when you guys behave this way. The only question is why you do it.
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
I think you guys serve a valuable purpose however. Most pilots can't imagine a law firm that would target as many line pilots and union officials as possible with either promises or threats to extract the proper behavior. Co-opting a union from the inside out is their main tactic. It just doesn't make sense to attack a union head on. It's a sure loser. Controlling a union is far more efficient and effective.
So please continue the consistent excuse making and benign spin. The more you do it, the more line pilots become educated on the fact that we have some of our own members working against us and for managements goals of strictly minimizing pilot costs.
Carl
09-24-2014 | 05:03 PM
#2206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
Well said. These guys jump at every opportunity to publicly state why to expect less and downplay Moak's asinine remarks....remarks that clearly hurt our cause. Yet all in the same breath they cry from the rooftops that we cannot release survey results because it will show our hand at the poker table. Then they turn around and publicly defecate on the idea of "restoration" or any serious strategy to strengthen our negotiating position. Ridonkerous!
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
09-24-2014 | 05:41 PM
#2208
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
EdGrimley,
What you and Carl are doing is pure McCarthyism and isn't even veiled. Every time someone disagrees with you they become "DALPA operatives" or more recently company paid spies. It's lazy. You don't bother to support your argument you simply attack with the most powerful accusation this side of "scab".
Argue your point. I'm interested to hear it.
What you and Carl are doing is pure McCarthyism and isn't even veiled. Every time someone disagrees with you they become "DALPA operatives" or more recently company paid spies. It's lazy. You don't bother to support your argument you simply attack with the most powerful accusation this side of "scab".
Argue your point. I'm interested to hear it.
09-24-2014 | 06:03 PM
#2209
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
EdGrimley,
What you and Carl are doing is pure McCarthyism and isn't even veiled. Every time someone disagrees with you they become "DALPA operatives" or more recently company paid spies. It's lazy. You don't bother to support your argument you simply attack with the most powerful accusation this side of "scab".
Argue your point. I'm interested to hear it.
What you and Carl are doing is pure McCarthyism and isn't even veiled. Every time someone disagrees with you they become "DALPA operatives" or more recently company paid spies. It's lazy. You don't bother to support your argument you simply attack with the most powerful accusation this side of "scab".
Argue your point. I'm interested to hear it.
Oberon,
Do you think Moak's statement will benefit us, benefit management, or basically have no effect?
I don't think it will be a big deal, but I tell you what - it will not help us no matter how you look at it. My opinion is that Lee got a little carried away.
Scoop
09-24-2014 | 06:08 PM
#2210
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Well said. These guys jump at every opportunity to publicly state why to expect less and downplay Moak's asinine remarks....remarks that clearly hurt our cause. Yet all in the same breath they cry from the rooftops that we cannot release survey results because it will show our hand at the poker table. Then they turn around and publicly defecate on the idea of "restoration" or any serious strategy to strengthen our negotiating position. Ridonkerous!
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
Btw, if you think in terms of what the company saves by lowering expectation via message board plants and pilot group sell outs, you'd be pretty naive to think they don't spend a few hundred thousand dollars paying guys to come here and push their agenda.
It's a low cost investment to reap hundreds of millions during contract time. Cue the "black helicopter and tin foil hat" comments from the usual suspects. The fact is, there are people here who put their own interests well ahead of gains for their peers and the piloting profession. This might manifest in the form of personal compensation, time at home as well as moving up the ranks as they prove to their ALPA superiors monitoring what is said here, that they have what it takes to take over from our Dear Leader some day.
Just to be clear, negotiations are about money and data. You guys argue on webboards and think that negotiations are some PR contest. They are not. There is not one media article that will affect the outcome in any way.
Bottom line; who cares what a stupid magazine says? If it doesn't affect your goals it doesn't affect anyone else's either. If you want to be taken seriously then act serious. This whole argument is fluff.
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