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10-02-2014 | 02:13 PM

#2501

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined: Mar 2009

Posts: 2,874

Likes: 0

From: Retired (mandatory age 65)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Do you even read my posts? Where have I said that I think history is irrelevant? You think you are entitled to some unsaid pay rate because you used to make an equivalent rate. That's not learning from history that's just asking for something you used to have. How does the negotiating environment compare to the negotiating environment in 2001? That's the history that matters.

The negotiating environment today is much better than it was in 2001... with one glaring exception: In 2001 we had union leadership that wasn't afraid to rock the boat and say the word restoration. The kind of spineless leadership we have today makes getting the gains we need infinitely more difficult, in spite of the superior economic situation.

10-02-2014 | 02:23 PM

#2502

Free Bird

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Aug 2008

Posts: 799

Likes: 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

You think you are entitled to some unsaid pay rate because you used to make an equivalent rate. That's not learning from history that's just asking for something you used to have. How does the negotiating environment compare to the negotiating environment in 2001? That's the history that matters.

Many of us that lived through this dark time in our history are trying to make up for the "lost decade". The Delta and NW pilots made huge sacrifices so that our companies could survive. Now that Delta is wildly profitable, is it not appropriate that we take steps to receive payment that is in alignment with what we contributed a decade ago?

I'm not demanding more money because we used to make that much. I'm demanding more money because DALPA said 4,8,3,3 was all that there was to get in the 2012 environment. With the company now making over 1 Billion a quarter, I think it's pretty obvious that we left LOTS of money on the table with C2012.

It is now easy to see that the company can afford to pay us significantly more than 4,8,3,3 on this next contract. The only question is will we accept it?

10-02-2014 | 02:31 PM

#2503

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 12,487

Likes: 0

From: 747-400 Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop

I think 100K a year as an average might be a little bit high, but not by much. My guess would be between 75 and 100K.

By looking at DAL88's math, I'll bet 100K is really darn close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop

IHowever there is really no reason to guess as this information is readily available and I sure hope the NC guys have it.

The NC does undoubtedly have it. My question is why don't we have that right now...before we finish the surveys? Wouldn't this be good information for the members to have before the survey? How about before we exchange openers? Or before we vote on a TA?

Sadly, it's rhetorical because this MEC will never publish that information. You have to ask yourself why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop

Divide total Pilot costs in 2004/total Pilots. That will give you an average for that year. Do the same for the following years and bingo you can get your answer.

You're right. Maybe some guys here with those figures could put that out. That'd sure make DALPA mad.

Carl

10-02-2014 | 04:23 PM

#2504

tsquare

No longer cares

Joined: Mar 2008

Posts: 12,109

Likes: 0

From: 767er Captain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbo

And if you are investing 20% of your money for your retirement now, that money is not available for you to pay bills. i.e. another 20% pay cut vs. the old DB plan which did NOT require you to 'invest' anything.

Nope. Sorry. That dog don't hunt. Money in my accounts and in my name can in absolutely no way be construed as a paycut. It might not be liquid, but it sure ain't a paycut

10-02-2014 | 04:31 PM

#2505

Oberon

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 588

Likes: 0

From: 757/767

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbo

2000 DAL earnings about $1 Billion
2014 DAL earnings are projected to be about $4 Billion

Is that enough for some 'restoration' to 10 year old pay rates?

And if it's not, how much is enough?

Maybe. How does the profit margin in 2014 compare to 2000? How does the Delta contract compare in 2014 to it's peers in 2000?

I don't understand why you think I'm arguing that we shouldn't get a big number. I think we should. I just don't think "restoration" is a good argument to get a big number.

10-02-2014 | 04:35 PM

#2506

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined: Mar 2009

Posts: 2,874

Likes: 0

From: Retired (mandatory age 65)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

What do you consider to be a "big number?" By what percentage would my W2 increase? If past precedent/standards have no place in your argument, then what kind of argument/negotiating tactics do you propose to get your number?

10-02-2014 | 04:36 PM

#2507

Oberon

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 588

Likes: 0

From: 757/767

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Great! Show some numbers. The result was pretty good in 2001. What did the company finances look like and how did Delta's peer contracts compare?

10-02-2014 | 04:40 PM

#2508

Purple Drank

Straight QOL, homie

Joined: Feb 2012

Posts: 4,202

Likes: 1

From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Great! Show some numbers.

Speaking of "showing numbers..." are you going to commit to a number that you equate to the "significant gains" you said you "hope" to achieve?

DAL 88 Driver has already shown his math and provided clear, measurable goals. Where are yours?

10-02-2014 | 04:44 PM

#2509

Timbo

Runs with scissors

Joined: Dec 2009

Posts: 7,847

Likes: 0

From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare

Nope. Sorry. That dog don't hunt. Money in my accounts and in my name can in absolutely no way be construed as a paycut. It might not be liquid, but it sure ain't a paycut

Of course money you put in your account is yours.

What I was talking about was the loss of our DB plan. When we had a DB plan, you KNEW how much you were going to be making in retirement, and you didn't HAVE TO put EXTRA money into your 401K, and hope the market doesn't crash!

Under today's DC plan, if you are in your 50's now, you don't have a lot of time to build up a sufficient retirement fund to replace what you lost in the DB plan.

In addition to the company's punny 15%, we now have to put EXTRA MONEY ASIDE for our retirement. Money from OUR PAYCHECKS, which are already reduced by a substantial amount! So, not only are the pay rates LESS than in 2004, in addition to that, you've now got to take some of that money and put it into your Retirement Account!

10-02-2014 | 04:48 PM

#2510

Oberon

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Apr 2008

Posts: 588

Likes: 0

From: 757/767

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

I don't know the numbers so I can't say. It will depend on our leverage which is based mostly on how the company is doing and other comparable contracts. Eyeballing it I can say we are in a pretty good position. Good enough for whatever number you think restoration is? I don't know.