Details on Delta TA
01-13-2015 | 05:55 AM
#3211
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,877
Likes: 194
Did we hear a word about it in C2012 prior to the TA being presented to the pilot group for MEMRAT?
You can't expect pilots to at least be somewhat leery of what we'll be asked to give up in C2015 given DALPA's support of funding a contractual raise through a reduction in profit sharing and/or the line of logics that requires the group to surrender something for a menial gain.
From this line guy's perspective...ANY reduction in profit sharing is a no go item for me. Won't even need to look at pay raises. Negotiating away profit sharing at a time when the company is making record profits defeats the very purpose of us negotiating profit sharing into the contract. Profit sharing was the incentivized carrot used to rally this companys' employees together to bring it back from the brink of insolvency.
You can't expect pilots to at least be somewhat leery of what we'll be asked to give up in C2015 given DALPA's support of funding a contractual raise through a reduction in profit sharing and/or the line of logics that requires the group to surrender something for a menial gain.
From this line guy's perspective...ANY reduction in profit sharing is a no go item for me. Won't even need to look at pay raises. Negotiating away profit sharing at a time when the company is making record profits defeats the very purpose of us negotiating profit sharing into the contract. Profit sharing was the incentivized carrot used to rally this companys' employees together to bring it back from the brink of insolvency.
01-13-2015 | 05:59 AM
#3212
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Funny how pay cuts in exchange for profit sharing increases is palatable to the company when they are struggling.
In all honesty sailing, I feel as though our contract should be a healthy balance between respectable base pay and a meaningful profit sharing bonuses.
01-13-2015 | 06:06 AM
#3213
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Likes: 0
This is an interesting conversation. If ALPA and the Company aren't entertaining a reduction in PS, good for them.
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
No, that's why it makes sense to monetize the profit sharing if it's above and beyond the negotiated payrates. In my case it's probably better to stick with profit sharing with the few years I have left. If however i had 20 years to go I would want the money in the payrates.
"The industry is fundamentally changed. Double digit rate of returns are hear to stay!" That was the Mantra being touted by management and unions alike in 2000. By June of 2001 the airlines were facing some of the biggest losses ever. It turned in the blink of a eye. For the young guys we need to be very careful how much at risk based compensation we leave in our contracts. It would be beyond stupid to negotiate based on good times forever.
"The industry is fundamentally changed. Double digit rate of returns are hear to stay!" That was the Mantra being touted by management and unions alike in 2000. By June of 2001 the airlines were facing some of the biggest losses ever. It turned in the blink of a eye. For the young guys we need to be very careful how much at risk based compensation we leave in our contracts. It would be beyond stupid to negotiate based on good times forever.
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
01-13-2015 | 06:11 AM
#3214
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,599
Likes: 2
This is an interesting conversation. If ALPA and the Company aren't entertaining a reduction in PS, good for them.
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
01-13-2015 | 06:12 AM
#3215
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Likes: 0
This is an interesting conversation. If ALPA and the Company aren't entertaining a reduction in PS, good for them.
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
01-13-2015 | 06:27 AM
#3216
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
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The fact that DALPA traded us down the river on PS last time around just makes us all believe that is the case this time. I'm 100% certain that if DALPA has 16% DOS raise in their opener, the company will counter with 10% plus a cut in PS equal to what the 16% would have given us. Why wouldn't they? It worked great for them last time around.
If the company is trying to take it, they're making the wrong noises. RA is talking it up every chance he gets.
I'm going to assume that the union can read the survey, and in any event, I will vote accordingly. If anyone can demonstrate that the union, which hasn't presented an opener AFAIK, is hell-bent on giving up PS, and pay-banding, I'll read their post with interest.
See you guys later.
01-13-2015 | 07:38 AM
#3217
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,877
Likes: 194
This is an interesting conversation. If ALPA and the Company aren't entertaining a reduction in PS, good for them.
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
PD hasn't backed up his claim yet, but I'm not dismissing it out-of-hand. Jerry has made the claim that some specific people are pushing for a monetization of the PS, but he can't back it up. Jerry sometimes has great rumors, sometimes he's just a puppet for some council's ventriloquist. He's warned on things that haven't yet materialized, like Pay Banding, but he failed to warn on SDP's.
I'm one of the people that believes he saw a trial balloon floating across the lounge. To be clear, I spoke to a guy that likes to be union-adjacent, but isn't in the structure as far as I know. He told me he had just spoken about the AA TA with a rep, and he (the pilot, not the rep) believed we wouldn't see much above AMR (DAL+7%) without monetizing the PS. I didn't have the time to expand on how the previous conversation caused him to believe this. For all I know, the rep simply told him the AA numbers, and that was that. I really have no first-hand knowledge of anyone in the union pushing for a monetization of the PS.
Another reason I thought some of had been exposed to trial balloons was this post:
But now sailing says he saw nothing, heard nothing...
So far, we have an unconfirmed from PD, a denial from sailing, the usual from Jerry, and the impression that I saw a trial balloon floating by, maybe, via proxy.
Anyone else?
I posted a while back that I suspected this would be a long bitter contract. With recent changes in the industry and the American contract I now think we might actually reach a deal prior to the amendable date that will ratify. RA does not care how much he pays us, he only cares about how much of a premium he pays us over the competition.
01-13-2015 | 08:29 AM
#3218
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
Likes: 0
From: 737 ATL
We still have never seen a number for how much Delta saved by terminating the pilot pensions.
Now there's something that I would trade profit sharing for. All the money we lost when they took our pensions.
01-13-2015 | 08:56 AM
#3219
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
You could have posted a source but you chose to attempt to discredit sailingfun. That doesn't help your credibility. Who, exactly, is pushing reducing or ending profit sharing? It's a very straight forward question. If you had a reasonable answer I'd be inclined to support what you are saying since I, like most Delta pilots, likes profit sharing and don't want to see it go
2) posting my source would out him/her
3) you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know PS is on the chopping block. Look at Dalpa's history of solving the company's problems, to the detriment of the line pilot.
There is no possible way we could sell our profit sharing dollar for dollar and attain compensation and QOL gains on top of that. We all need to tell our reps any PS giveaways can be discussed after our new "historic" contract is finalized.
Also need to tell them the AF/KLM JV is a separate issue, not to be included in said "historic"'contract.
01-13-2015 | 09:49 AM
#3220
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Likes: 0
RH is now head of the Strategic Planning Committee.
He has 10 yes votes on the MEC.
MY OPINION
He now has complete 100% control.
He has zero regard for the survey. He thinks line pilots are ignorant and slow. They can never understand the big business he and Richard do.
He will "monetize" and "take risk off the table" by reducing profit sharing.
Again MY OPINION ONLY
I hope to be wrong. I know rich could get us a "historic" C2015 IF he wanted to. Unfortunately he is being played with a pat on the head from RA. Think junior exec.
He has 10 yes votes on the MEC.
MY OPINION
He now has complete 100% control.
He has zero regard for the survey. He thinks line pilots are ignorant and slow. They can never understand the big business he and Richard do.
He will "monetize" and "take risk off the table" by reducing profit sharing.
Again MY OPINION ONLY
I hope to be wrong. I know rich could get us a "historic" C2015 IF he wanted to. Unfortunately he is being played with a pat on the head from RA. Think junior exec.
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