Details on Delta TA
05-21-2015 | 03:10 PM
#4501
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Thank you. I'm glad that you agree with my analysis. You and I are quite in agreement that the "devil is in the details". See above from the original scenario posed. Of course it is vital to evaluate the remainder of the deal! I would not state otherwise.
The original was exercise to show that when controlling for other variables, a profit-sharing to pay conversion is just that, a conversion... not a concession.
It will help us all if we are using the same definitions, so let me know if you agree or not with the following in a contractual context:
Concession- the act of removing a contractual provision or protection where either: value is lost, no quid is made, no value is added elsewhere. Party A has a reduced value of their agreement going forward, and Party B has increased it's value within the agreement.
Exchange/Conversion/Trade-When two parties alter a contract where party A reduces the value of a provision or protection, and receives that value elsewhere in an agreement at the expense of party B. Also known as a "quid". Overall value remains the same to parties A and B, but the value is shifted to different areas than before the change.
Improvement/Gains-Where party A is able to increase the value of an agreement above and beyond the status quo. The end result being greater for party A than prior to the modified agreement.
Do you agree with those definitions?
The original was exercise to show that when controlling for other variables, a profit-sharing to pay conversion is just that, a conversion... not a concession.
It will help us all if we are using the same definitions, so let me know if you agree or not with the following in a contractual context:
Concession- the act of removing a contractual provision or protection where either: value is lost, no quid is made, no value is added elsewhere. Party A has a reduced value of their agreement going forward, and Party B has increased it's value within the agreement.
Exchange/Conversion/Trade-When two parties alter a contract where party A reduces the value of a provision or protection, and receives that value elsewhere in an agreement at the expense of party B. Also known as a "quid". Overall value remains the same to parties A and B, but the value is shifted to different areas than before the change.
Improvement/Gains-Where party A is able to increase the value of an agreement above and beyond the status quo. The end result being greater for party A than prior to the modified agreement.
Do you agree with those definitions?
Next question for you: When this TA comes out with pay rate increases and reductions in profit sharing, will you consider it an Exchange/Conversion/Trade?
Carl
05-21-2015 | 03:26 PM
#4502
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Not at all. Not sure where it was stated "must be given up", those are your words not mine. I wholly disagree with that philosophy! Profit sharing is not bad, it's quite valuable actually (as the last few years have finally shown). I expect that the value will continue to be there over the next few years.
Your second comment is rather insulting, some of us(maybe not you) have actually been on the receiving end of a Ford and Harrison campaign, it's ugly, destructive, and has hurt many families over the years. I kindly ask that you refrain from attempting to apply that description to me.
No we don't. You're confusing past value calculations with future calculations. You're wanting to monetize future profit sharing without knowing the future. It's exactly what the MEC administration has been spouting for some time now.
Carl
05-21-2015 | 03:33 PM
#4503
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
I'd be remiss if I didn't add that there'd have been no UAL c2k rates had they not (successfully and admirably) patterned off of the "Delta Dot."
Despite attacks on their fortitude and unionism, I'm grateful that many of the men who brought us the "Dot" and C2k are still working on our behalf.
Despite attacks on their fortitude and unionism, I'm grateful that many of the men who brought us the "Dot" and C2k are still working on our behalf.
Yup DALPA working on behalf of pilots. [face palm]
Carl
05-21-2015 | 03:36 PM
#4504
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
05-21-2015 | 03:59 PM
#4506
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Confirmed through multiple sources:
- MEC approved invasive sick leave investigations
- MEC approved removing LCA trips from FO PBS options
- NC member broke down crying and threatened to quit when he received pushback from the MEC.
I can't even fathom that. One of the guys sitting at the table for us--he's supposed to be getting us the best possible deal!--is so far in the tank for the company, he started crying when he couldn't persuade an already weak MEC to agree to more concessions.
It's sickening.
- MEC approved invasive sick leave investigations
- MEC approved removing LCA trips from FO PBS options
- NC member broke down crying and threatened to quit when he received pushback from the MEC.
I can't even fathom that. One of the guys sitting at the table for us--he's supposed to be getting us the best possible deal!--is so far in the tank for the company, he started crying when he couldn't persuade an already weak MEC to agree to more concessions.
It's sickening.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 05-21-2015 at 04:31 PM.
05-21-2015 | 04:01 PM
#4507
Straight QOL, homie
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 1
From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
D Mantooth sounds exactly like that Curly guy (hatchet man for the entrenched bureaucrats).
Last edited by Purple Drank; 05-21-2015 at 04:17 PM.
05-21-2015 | 04:02 PM
#4508
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
I don't think so.
ALPA has to be worried they would not survive another C2012.
2 things have to occur:
1) This contract has to be a huge gain for the pilots.
Some give and take? Sure. But a huge gain.
2) The process has to be "clean".
The permanent ALPA guys or "shadow MEC" or whatever you want to call them, can NOT be seen as having subverted the will of the pilot's elected reps or having any other undue influence on the outcome. That can't happen again.
If those 2 things do not occur I think you would see some serious, credible people step up and either start a new organization, or more likely, assume leadership of the DPA. ALPA would then be removed as the bargaining agent for the Delta pilots.
This contract is critical. For the Delta pilots AND for ALPA.
ALPA has to be worried they would not survive another C2012.
2 things have to occur:
1) This contract has to be a huge gain for the pilots.
Some give and take? Sure. But a huge gain.
2) The process has to be "clean".
The permanent ALPA guys or "shadow MEC" or whatever you want to call them, can NOT be seen as having subverted the will of the pilot's elected reps or having any other undue influence on the outcome. That can't happen again.
If those 2 things do not occur I think you would see some serious, credible people step up and either start a new organization, or more likely, assume leadership of the DPA. ALPA would then be removed as the bargaining agent for the Delta pilots.
This contract is critical. For the Delta pilots AND for ALPA.
There's a chance that a slim majority of our pilot group could vote down a TA that's ratified by the reps if it's just too insulting. That's the only weapon we have against a union that is owned by non-members.
Carl
05-21-2015 | 04:08 PM
#4509
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
No, acl65 was one of the most purely political hacks I'd ever seen. He was completely incapable of a straight answer. Every statement filled with escape hatches if needed for future denials.
This guy is at least direct. I'm guessing maybe the reincarnation of Bucking Bar?
Carl
This guy is at least direct. I'm guessing maybe the reincarnation of Bucking Bar?
Carl
05-21-2015 | 04:17 PM
#4510
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Hey, I think I just found Donutelli's new slogan for the C2015 sales job: "LOSE LESS BY VOTING YES!"
Carl
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
