tsquare

Thus enters the camel......

DAL 88 Driver

Totally agree!

Herkflyr

True. Sometimes the camel walks backwards, though. NWA had them, now they/we don't. I suppose ANC-ATL or LIM-ATL are so much better?

Herkflyr

Who says that the hypothetical (and that is all it is) ATL-SAV, 6 hr hotel, SAV-ATL example is flying fatigued? In my 3 years on the 88, I found a 4-day trip with lots of legs and early reports to be very fatiguing. Do we ban those?

gzsg

Square

What, in your opinion, is my agenda?

IMO my agenda has been clearly written here.

We got backdoored on CDOs and reduced profit sharing.

Will do everything I can to stop that from happening again.



Jerry

gloopy

That's a non sequitur though. SDP's can and have been done safely. They are also hugely popular, as long as there are protections built in. The last TA did not do enough IMO in that regard, and gave way too much latitude to the company.

The biggest threat to circadian disruptions is constantly shifting your waking hours. A PM report followed by a day sleep and a red eye followed by a 5am show is WAY less safe than reasonable SDP's, especially if people stay on the same schedule. Some will make the arguement that some people will play Johnny Hero and try to run a business or be Super Parent at home or paint the house or whatever instead of sleeping, but those kinds of people will disregard their rest obligations regardless.

As for the 8 hours of sleep, honestly, what percentage of pilots on any 5AM report do you really think got a full 8 hours? Even with a reasonable commute by car where you get up around 3 to leave the house at 4, are most pilots really in bed and falling sound asleep for a solid 8 hours or quality REM sleep by 7PM? You know that number is extremely low.

How about the international flights? Sure they usually come off a 24 hour or more layover, but napping on the way over and then trying to sleep twice in a 24 hour period is very rough on circadian cycles. Those trips are mostly commutable though, so people bid them for that reason as well, and I'm sure many pilots spend all of their report day doing the type A hustle instead of priming their circadian pumps.

There is nothing inherently unsafe about a SDP that is in excess of the challenges we already face with domestic and international operations in an increasingly 24 hour world. The key is in the details.

The last TA didn't have enough protections and I didn't like how we got sand bagged about it. But we're not doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by reflexively pulling the fire alarm any and every time this issue comes up. SDP's aren't any more dangerous than many other operations we currently do, and if done right (the big if in question) they can be safer than some things we currently already do.

The possibility that someone will ignore their opporunity to rest is always present for SDP's and everything else we do. The fact remains that if SDP's were done right they would be hugely popular, pay well, result in a great schedule and if pilots did their part they would be every bit as safe as anything else we do.

DAL 88 Driver

The FAA.
_____________________________________________
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf

Excerpts:

Fatigue is characterized by a general lack of alertness and degradation in mental and physical performance. Fatigue manifests in the aviation context not only when pilots fall asleep in the cockpit in flight, but perhaps more importantly, when they are insufficiently alert during take-off and landing. Reported fatigue-related events have included procedural errors, unstable approaches, lining up with the wrong runway, and landing without clearances.

Common symptoms of fatigue include:
• Measurable reduction in speed and accuracy of performance, Lapses of attention and vigilance, Delayed reactions,
• Impaired logical reasoning and decision-making, including a reduced ability to assess risk or appreciate consequences of actions,
• Reduced situational awareness, and
• Low motivation to perform optional activities.

A variety of factors contribute to whether an individual experiences fatigue as well as the severity of that fatigue. The major factors affecting fatigue include:
• Time of day. Fatigue is, in part, a function of circadian rhythms. All other factors being equal, fatigue is most likely, and, when present, most severe, between the hours of 2:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m.

• Amount of recent sleep. If a person has had significantly less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 24 hours, he or she is more likely to be fatigued.

Scientific research and experimentation have consistently demonstrated that adequate sleep sustains performance. For most people, 8 hours of sleep in each 24-hour period sustains performance indefinitely. Sleep opportunities during the WOCL are preferable because sleep that occurs during the WOCL provides the most recuperative value. Within limits, shortened periods of nighttime sleep may be nearly as beneficial as a consolidated sleep period when augmented by additional sleep periods, such as naps before evening departures, during flights with augmented flightcrews, and during layovers. Sleep should not be fragmented with interruptions.

Sleep science has settled on the following points: The most effective fatigue mitigation is sleep; an average individual needs to have an 8-hour sleep opportunity to be restored; and daytime sleep is less restorative than nighttime sleep. For most people, 8 hours of sleep in each 24 hours sustains performance indefinitely. There is a continuous decrease in performance as sleep is lost.
__________________________________________________ __

There's a lot more, but it's a 300+ page document and I'm not going to spend a lot more time searching. The above didn't take me very long.

badflaps

I remember all those numbers being published in the AJC in some sort of public plea on the part of management, shocked I was....

DAL 88 Driver

The track record for CDO's ("SDP's") in this industry is clear. Guys like them and bid them because it allows them to be home every day and do whatever it is they want/need to do. They do not sleep during the day. The only sleep they get is whatever sleep the CDO provides. There may be rare exceptions to that, but the track record is clear that the vast majority do exactly as I described. Operating a flight (whether it's a short flight or a long flight) on maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period is UNSAFE. Period.

If we ever get these horrid things, I will not sign the release to operate that morning flight. If I can't avoid the trip, I'll be forced to call in fatigued for the morning flight. Do you really want to put Delta pilots in that position?

tsquare

Here ya go... to refresh your memory from about 5 posts ago...

And then there is this:

I KNOW for a fact, that if I get saddled with one of those 2 hour legs, then "minimum rest" or whatever they determine "safe" being something less than about 6 hours behind the door... I will not be able to function. Especially when you throw in IROPS... (And I guess protection might mean a enough rest to bring you up to merely exhausted rather than fatigued) If there is some protection to allow us to opt out of this altogether, then have at it. Of course that is another thing that can be taken away in a future negotiation, which gives me pause to approve this insanity.. but that is another discussion I think. I prefer not to let the camel anywhere near the tent on this one.....