Details on Delta TA
08-26-2014, 08:06 AM
#991
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 757/767
Posts: 588
Originally Posted by Sink r8
You keep telling yourself that.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
Is there a rate of pay that would make LBP palatable? Hypothetically, if every pilot got 777/747 pay (adjusted to whatever you feel that airplane should pay) with longer freezes and exceptions for base displacements would that be palatable?
Unbiased, just trying to understand each argument.
08-26-2014, 08:12 AM
#992
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Sink r8
You keep telling yourself that.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
For your validation, I have always found you to be a reasonable, well thought out, fair, tell it like you see it poster.
08-26-2014, 08:14 AM
#993
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Originally Posted by Sink r8
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
I learned it from you, Dad...I learned it from you!
08-26-2014, 08:17 AM
#994
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Oberon
Is there a rate of pay that would make LBP palatable? Hypothetically, if every pilot got 777/747 pay (adjusted to whatever you feel that airplane should pay) with longer freezes and exceptions for base displacements would that be palatable?
Unbiased, just trying to understand each argument.
Unbiased, just trying to understand each argument.
08-26-2014, 08:21 AM
#995
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Sink r8
You keep telling yourself that.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
As to Jerry. There is a lot that I agree with him on also, but I cannot get on his bandwagon when he throws it all out there with no evidence. Sorry, But I don't trust him any more than he trusts LM. That is why I was essentially pleading with him to stop the retarded arguments.
Vacation sellback. It would benefit me, but I will fight against it. It is flat out wrong and costs jobs.
Whether or not something is a giveback is all in the eye of the beholder I guess. To me, CDOs are huge concessions.. safety concerns primarily, but I know sailingfun drools at the thought of them and he is not alone.
I guess that is what divides us as a group and what makes this profession so interesting. There are 12,000 pilots, and probably 12,000 different opinions as to what the perfect contract would consist of. Finding that balance is what it's all about, no? Anybody that believes there is a way to get 75% or more of this group to agree on anything is full of powdered sugar.
08-26-2014, 08:21 AM
#996
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by Sink r8
You keep telling yourself that.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
I think you've been shown the weakness of your argument from a number of different perspectives, from a wide spectrum of posters. LBP is the mother of all concessions, and the ultimate end of the road that Pay Banding paves for us.
I agree with your perspective about Jerry's internet antics. But just because he's getting selectively deepthroated from someone on the MEC, and has a strange way of selectively leaking afterwards (there is a disgusting metaphor for you)... and just because he failed to say a peep on CDO's... and just because he can't prove pay banding is on the table... doesn't mean he wrong about the impact of pay banding. I completely agree with him that, hypothetically, pay banding would be a large, punitive and unnecessary concession.
Then there is the guy trying get pay banding AND vacation sellbacks on the agenda, and many posters think he "wrote a good letter".
I'm trying to imagine the sort of personal trauma, or masochism, that's motivating some of us to try to give back more. I can't quite do it.
I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I've argued against those who have irrational expectations in a future contract, but I'm really, really struggling to understand how people are trying to rationalize concessions. If a Delta pilot didn't get properly breast-fed, or they have to cry themselves softly to sleep at night, I would encourage them to seek positive remedies, like professional help, or maybe even something harmless like sucking their thumb. But please, for god's sake, not bending over in front of their boss.
Jerry
08-26-2014, 08:25 AM
#997
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Oberon
Is there a rate of pay that would make LBP palatable? Hypothetically, if every pilot got 777/747 pay (adjusted to whatever you feel that airplane should pay) with longer freezes and exceptions for base displacements would that be palatable?
Unbiased, just trying to understand each argument.
Unbiased, just trying to understand each argument.
Take the airplane out of the equation. I don't care if it is a RJ-200 or a 380. It doesn't matter. Where can I get the best QOL, especially when I am 63 years old? (And I still have a ways to go until then)
08-26-2014, 08:34 AM
#998
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by scambo1
Its been hashed out on about 3 separate occasions over the years. As far as I can tell, T is the only proponent (who says he wants to enlighten), but has never given hard numbers or a compelling argument for it (kind of what he derides Jerry for doing).
As to Jerry... I just want him to provide evidence as to the accusations he is constantly levelling at the MEC and the company... and I am not necessarily saying he is wrong... I just want him to provide evidence that this is occurring. Mine is an opinion. There is a vast difference between the two.
08-26-2014, 08:34 AM
#999
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by tsquare
Take the airplane out of the equation. I don't care if it is a RJ-200 or a 380. It doesn't matter. Where can I get the best QOL, especially when I am 63 years old? (And I still have a ways to go until then)
08-26-2014, 08:50 AM
#1000
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by tsquare
If I were more of a computer expert, I would certainly do that. So here's an off the cuff text version: I ran a bunch of numbers years ago based on the DAL fleet makeup, the basic premise is that you would be a CA for 20 years and spend minimal time on each piece of equipment for those years... upgrading at the first opportunity based on the percentage that each airframe makes up in the fleet. So basically, you would be a bottom reserve on each airplane, but move up to the next one as soon as possible. Average out the pay rates and base it on however many hours you believe you could fly (it doesn't matter in the end as long as you use the same number for each airplane) I used 75 hours. Over the course of your career, you would have averaged 767 pay, because that fleet made up 35% of the metal at DAL. (And when you were in the twilight of your career.. when it is supposed to be fun.. you were sitting short call in ATL to fly the 777 for 9 months... wooo hooo) Now... that gauge is getting smaller. (It will be 737 soon). If you got a payraise based on your longevity, you would have averaged much more, but I cant put a number on it because I had to make an assumption that would have to be negotiated. (I started with a $100/hour captain in year 1 of the CA phase of the career, and went up in differing percentages... a higher percentage in the first 10 years, tapering off as you got more senior.) The calculus under tha curve differential would water your eyes as to how much more $$ you would have in your bank... and a better QOL.
As to Jerry... I just want him to provide evidence as to the accusations he is constantly levelling at the MEC and the company... and I am not necessarily saying he is wrong... I just want him to provide evidence that this is occurring. Mine is an opinion. There is a vast difference between the two.
As to Jerry... I just want him to provide evidence as to the accusations he is constantly levelling at the MEC and the company... and I am not necessarily saying he is wrong... I just want him to provide evidence that this is occurring. Mine is an opinion. There is a vast difference between the two.
That is the most explanation you have ever given on the topic. Based on what you wrote, your model appears to be very individualized (maybe personalized). So, the model is different for each individual. Additionally, it doesn't take into account the QOL and higher pay opportunity affects of seniority. So, it is a simplified and therefore error prone yet workable model.
I can see how your model could give more $$ area under the graph using your assumptions. I can also see the logic error in jumping to the conclusion that due to 757 down gauging to 739 LBP is the "correct" solution.
I agree with you that the company buys the airplanes. I agree with you that maximizing money and QOL are both goals.
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