Bergman

largER class. I’d like to see us back to the 60+ class size, every other week, like in 2014-2016.

Big E 757

I think we all would.

Lone Palm

It should become available later this year or early next year to new hires as the seat locks come up for the bottom of the list in NYC. 🙈

FangsF15

I didn't say or imply anything went out of seniority. The reality is 2.5 years ago, I was THE plug on the -400 in NYC. Then something changed with the bid packet: LAX 2-days. Which then became non-commutable. The last two MOABs have gone significantly more junior than at any time I am aware of, with nearly 40 below me after the AE's (in seniority order, btw), with some on their 1-year seat lock expiration. It's not a normal/historical progression, it was artificially made a less desirable category by marketing, and some took advantage of their (minimal) seniority.

The point in answering the original question is do not count on it, as the current progression is not typical, and if the artificiality goes away, I would bet a year's pay it will once again go much more senior. If LAX stays permanently, it will be the new normal, but only because marketing 'tweaked' the market.

New categories are always a crap shoot, and take many AE's to normalize. One cannot extrapolate much from the 350 right now.

Gunfighter

Fangs is spot on. The implied direct relationship between pay rate and seniority is false. It fails to consider other QOL factors. NYC 7ER was a new hire airplane because of 24hr short calls. Changes in utilization also impact seniority. Moving from 17 hour 3 day trips to 10:30 un-commutable 2 day trips will impact the natural seniority order. DTW 777 was senior to LAX or ATL, because all trips started and finished with a DH. It was a commuters dream. Many factors outside of pay rate impact seniority of a category.

Every category we have is in natural seniority order, based on the factors in place at the time of the bid. QOL and seat locks can impact the natural order of things. Can we define better terms for what people actually mean when they say artificially junior or out of seniority?

Artificially junior = Junior by QOL
Out of Seniority = I wanted the bid someone junior to me was just awarded, but didn't bother to bid it because I didn't think it would go that junior, so now I'm whining about it. We can use "Whining" for brevity.

TED74

I try not to misquote anyone, which is why I quoted your words. I simply expanded the discussion to include "out of seniority" discriptors.

I still don't understand what is "artificial" about the 400 bid pack, or why this great, high-paying aircraft shifted so junior. Those trips suck for commuters, and the 400 is not a new category awaiting some sort of normalization.

Alas, it's just semantics/academic. I honestly don't think we disagree about much here.

tennisguru

How about "junior relative to historical norms"

Buck Rogers

I sometimes use "out of seniority", not as a dispersion or to insinuate anything wasn't above board, just as a brief descriptor to describe where one will be for a long time. You make ER FO in training at JFK? You're gonna be junior in JFK for a long time as people backfill....you want to go to another base with your ER....not gonna happen cause NO other base goes down to your seniority

I think most people "reserve" the term for instances where the list is grossly exagerated.....ie....you are the plug in category and the next guy up is 500 num's ahead and the next is 300 num's ahead of him.

You make captain while on probation.....bzzt..."out of senority" ....better hope there aren't any displacements on any bids cause you'll be lucky to hang onto that position

Gunfighter

Your write, but its the internet, so were supposed to disagree. Their isn't entertainment value when when you take away they're arguments.

SWIDT

badflaps

Over at the regionals your rockin' the norm.