Swa aip
08-29-2016 | 09:38 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 0
From: Kickin’ Back
Denny
08-29-2016 | 10:46 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,836
Likes: 175
From: window seat
I don't think anyone is advocating that in the slightest. There's zero chance any TA will contain disproportionately low 777 rates or anything like that. I think all he's saying is that we collectively can't be blinded by top scale rates since we lag the industry (by a WIDE margin) in the number of pilot positions that will actually pay those rates. The Whale will be gone by the end of C2015 (maybe before we even get C2015) so that'll leave the vast majority of the pilots here flying something smaller for most if not all of their careers, and many who do fly it will only get to touch it for a fraction the time as UA/AA. That's all. No one's throwing anyone under the bus.
08-30-2016 | 01:52 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,152
Likes: 130
I don't think anyone is advocating that in the slightest. There's zero chance any TA will contain disproportionately low 777 rates or anything like that. I think all he's saying is that we collectively can't be blinded by top scale rates since we lag the industry (by a WIDE margin) in the number of pilot positions that will actually pay those rates. The Whale will be gone by the end of C2015 (maybe before we even get C2015) so that'll leave the vast majority of the pilots here flying something smaller for most if not all of their careers, and many who do fly it will only get to touch it for a fraction the time as UA/AA. That's all. No one's throwing anyone under the bus.
08-30-2016 | 04:02 AM
#105
Bus driver
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 902
Likes: 16
James/T has long championed banded pay-rates, but what you propose makes a lot of sense: career earnings vs. time-at-job earning that money is where the real comparison lies. It is a useful metric, and indeed, the real measure of how "well" we get paid relative to other companies.
Southwest pays nearly 130 equivalent hours per month using their "trip" flight pay system, we see nothing close to that on a regular basis, yet our NB guys spend more days on the road earning their paycheck?
Let's compare total W-2 pay, contributions to retirement, and Time Away From Base, and see where we fall.
After all, don't we all want "more money, more time off?" That's the way to measure it and get it.
Southwest pays nearly 130 equivalent hours per month using their "trip" flight pay system, we see nothing close to that on a regular basis, yet our NB guys spend more days on the road earning their paycheck?
Let's compare total W-2 pay, contributions to retirement, and Time Away From Base, and see where we fall.
After all, don't we all want "more money, more time off?" That's the way to measure it and get it.
08-30-2016 | 04:41 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 755
Likes: 0
From: 737 right
This right here. Just had a jump seater. Former Air Tran living in Atlanta, commutes to HOU. He flies four 3 days a month. The 3 day he was about to work was worth 19:30. For his 12 days working, he averages 95 TFP's; that works out to about 109 hours of pay. Not bad for 12 days. I'd have to work 21 days on the 717 to earn that. The usual suspects are making this TA out to be not that big a deal. When you put more money on top of arguably some of the best work rules in the industry, it's a big deal. The company funded B plan is nice as well. Meanwhile, back here, we're trying to figure out how far backwards we need to take our work rules to get industry standard pay...sigh.
08-30-2016 | 04:44 AM
#107
Bus driver
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 902
Likes: 16
Congratulations on your new job! That's crazy, our 4 days are worth 21 in the 717. Believe me, we all work for it. Difference is, we work 4 to 5 days more a month for what you make. Great timing on the new job and new TA...just one more bar raised for our weak NC to b**** about!
08-30-2016 | 05:01 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Then you have accepted the notion that equipment should be as predominant a factor in earnings as it has become. And as 737s replace 757s and CS100s replace MD88s, you'll similarly accept a regression in earnings for Delta pilots.
I think what we all care about is time given to one's employer, and what one receives in exchange. I don't mind comparing very similar forests (e.g., annual W2 or annual TAFB) comprised of very different trees (hourly rates, trip rigs, reserve days/month) - it's the big picture that matters in the long run. Unfortunately, we often debate the trees and completely miss deforrestation right in front of our eyes.
I think what we all care about is time given to one's employer, and what one receives in exchange. I don't mind comparing very similar forests (e.g., annual W2 or annual TAFB) comprised of very different trees (hourly rates, trip rigs, reserve days/month) - it's the big picture that matters in the long run. Unfortunately, we often debate the trees and completely miss deforrestation right in front of our eyes.
The are a defacto longevity system. If we had that here.......
08-30-2016 | 05:09 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,960
Likes: 0
From: Power top
This right here. Just had a jump seater. Former Air Tran living in Atlanta, commutes to HOU. He flies four 3 days a month. The 3 day he was about to work was worth 19:30. For his 12 days working, he averages 95 TFP's; that works out to about 109 hours of pay. Not bad for 12 days. I'd have to work 21 days on the 717 to earn that. The usual suspects are making this TA out to be not that big a deal. When you put more money on top of arguably some of the best work rules in the industry, it's a big deal. The company funded B plan is nice as well. Meanwhile, back here, we're trying to figure out how far backwards we need to take our work rules to get industry standard pay...sigh.
08-30-2016 | 05:11 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,884
Likes: 199
I don't think anyone is advocating that in the slightest. There's zero chance any TA will contain disproportionately low 777 rates or anything like that. I think all he's saying is that we collectively can't be blinded by top scale rates since we lag the industry (by a WIDE margin) in the number of pilot positions that will actually pay those rates. The Whale will be gone by the end of C2015 (maybe before we even get C2015) so that'll leave the vast majority of the pilots here flying something smaller for most if not all of their careers, and many who do fly it will only get to touch it for a fraction the time as UA/AA. That's all. No one's throwing anyone under the bus.
Here are real numbers I posted earlier on top of scale jobs at Delta.
Between the 350 and 777 by 2020 we will have well over 1300 pilots staffing those two airframes. Hardly a few jobs. The 787 is the front runner to replace the 58 767ER's. Staffing will be lighter on those airframes with mostly 3 man verses 4 but still another potential 1200 to 1400 jobs.
Edit: Based on current 777 staffing my numbers are light. Probably over 1500 pilots will be required for the 777/350.
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