This conversation right here is the exact reason pilots will NEVER have the upper hand in any discussions with a company.

There used to be ONE UNION for moving stuff across oceans and if you wanted something moved then you had NO CHOICE but to deal with the Merchant Marine Union. Of course bankers and businesses swore that would NEVER happen again. So when it came to trains, planes and trucks they made sure there were MANY UNIONS all played against one another. All having the same layers of overhead getting pulled out of your pockets every month. All claiming to represent your interests while simply serving the interests of the companies and bankers that created them.

As long as any ONE UNION thinks they will do better by NOT allowing the other members of their trade move within their ranks, WE ALL LOSE and the bankers and companies win.

It is the reason a company can demand concessions, file chapter 11 and reorganize ending up invalidating a contract. It is the reason you have to go to the bottom of a seniority list every time you change jobs and the reason you remain a slave even though you want to move to another company.

IF WE ALL HAD ONE SENIORITY NUMBER, companies and bankers could not do what they are able to do today. There would be no chapter 11, the heroes of business, would instead have to file chapter 7 and poorly run companies would fade into Pan Am history while all the pilots went down the street and merged into more well run companies.

Now, I am not saying that your ATP license that you have not flown for 20 years gets you a 747 if you have no experience. Clearly there has to be something more than the date you got your ATP. But as long as we are unwilling to give up access to our union seniority list because ALPA is not gonna fail but only those "other airline unions" who will all have to start over on the bottom of our list...

So get used to being a cog in a rigged system or at least think about the big picture instead of just your place on our list.

FIRE AWAY!!!

 

YX is set to lose 6 DL 170s to CPA expiration in 2020.

 

I said, forget Flow, it ain't going to happen, and for obvious reasons, corporate structure for one thing and management willingness another. But if you guys insist on pursuing this ridiculous argument, then let me give you one non obvious reason: seniority numbers. There is an ALPA bylaw that says if an ALPA pilot joins with another ALPA carrier he/she must give up her previous ALPA carrier's seniority number. In other words, you can't be on two or more ALPA seniority lists at the same time, which would be the case if you are a furloughed Delta pilot working at Endeavor. I know a lot of stupid Delta pilots, but not a one of them is that stupid.
It's not to say you can't join a crappy cargo carrier with the Teamsters on the property, you can, but they're not likely to hire you knowing you will leave to return to your better airline after just a few months. Any Delta pilot can take his skill set and Type Rating to Asia and make twice what he makes here in the USA, as too can any Endeavor pilot.
You must all keep in mind you have an incredibly valuable skill set that employers worldwide will pay for (don't ever give it away for free). Stop being afraid. Demand more, not less. The question you should be asking is why, as Front Line Employees, you not being paid MORE dollars during this National Emergency. Stop looking for an 'easy out' scenario, or some pie-in-the-sky silliness to avoid an interview. Tell your MEC to go do their job. Tell them you want more, not less.

 

When Delta furloughed, the pilots of ASA allowed the furloughs to be hired and retain their DL seniority numbers. Comair said no. ASA pilots received exactly squat as gratitude for this, but the point is, it can be done.

 

Delta didn’t shut down ASA. There’s gratitude.

 

The pilots of Delta who were the beneficiary of ASA pilots doing the right thing, had nothing to do with ASA not being shut down. That was management raising cash and protecting gates and other assets while in bankruptcy.

Not even a thanks was heard from DL pilots.

 

I don't think we'll see a flowdown negotiated at Endeavor but that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for a flow up.

The best chance for a negotiated flow UP is packaged with a flow DOWN.

Now might even be the BEST time to try to negotiate it because we don't KNOW that Delta is going to furlough. We THINK they're going to furlough but as some have said, October is a long time from now.

As for flow down precedents, when Compass, Mesaba and PSA had flow down agreements in place there was always the option to give up your opportunity to flow up to protect your seniority at the regional. Compass had something like 30 senior dudes that did it, if Delta had ever furloughed when Compass existed those 30 guys would have STAYED the top 30 guys.

Same thing at Mesaba, guys who turned down the flow up to Northwest got to be senior to any potential flow downs.

Other than preferential hiring agreements I'm not aware of any flow down that doesn't flow down to the top of the regional list.

As for the guy who said Alpa bylaws prevent you from holding 2 ALPA seniority numbers, I personally know people who have done that, so I'd have to see Chapter and Verse in the bylaws to believe that.

 

When push comes to shove, there is no easy-out solution. At some point in a pilot's career, you have to be a man and take responsibility for your own future. Poaching on another pilot's seniority list is not a sustainable solution to your own short-term problem.

 

How is flow still in anyone’s vernacular at Endeavor anymore? Serious question. Does anyone think even the DGI will resume?

 

Maybe if you keep wearing your hat and your stupid a** delta lanyard it will. are you even allowed to wear a delta lanyard as a LCP???