Any "Latest & Greatest" about Endeavor?
11-30-2016 | 06:40 PM
#8761
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 0
I don't really know what you're asking here. Are you trying to say that because some buyouts result in mergers due to types of equipment operated, then either all regional WO's should get full seniority at a mainline, NWA pilots should have had to interview for a job, or else there is mass hypocrisy? That makes no sense but it appears its the path you're trying to go down.
I'm against the outsourcing of large regional jets. To rein it in requires we focus on that level first. We've finally stopped the onslaught at that level and hopefully we can do more later.
I'm well aware of the Ford/Cooksley/et al asinine analogies about slavery and Hitler and all the evils of the world being embodied in the gross injustice of them not getting a chance to present their DOH/relative integration fantasies in binding arbitration. ALPA and the legacies certainly didn't handle the run up to the regional debacle correctly, but shame on those few regional guys at the time for their lame attempt at a massive land grab windfall all while draping themselves in the flag of unionism and the sanctity of "the process". No one bought it then and no one's buying it now.
The real question is where do we go from here. All signs point to a flow not being an option anytime soon, and airlines are looking at ab initio schemes, MPL and all of that. I'd rather current DCI pilots (especially exclusive DCI ALPA and WO pilots) get significant preferential treatment, especially before any wonder kid selected from birth or whatever. But I don't see any way to force the company to take 100% of all pilots at any particular regional airline with no say whatsoever. That's just not realistic.
I'm against the outsourcing of large regional jets. To rein it in requires we focus on that level first. We've finally stopped the onslaught at that level and hopefully we can do more later.
I'm well aware of the Ford/Cooksley/et al asinine analogies about slavery and Hitler and all the evils of the world being embodied in the gross injustice of them not getting a chance to present their DOH/relative integration fantasies in binding arbitration. ALPA and the legacies certainly didn't handle the run up to the regional debacle correctly, but shame on those few regional guys at the time for their lame attempt at a massive land grab windfall all while draping themselves in the flag of unionism and the sanctity of "the process". No one bought it then and no one's buying it now.
The real question is where do we go from here. All signs point to a flow not being an option anytime soon, and airlines are looking at ab initio schemes, MPL and all of that. I'd rather current DCI pilots (especially exclusive DCI ALPA and WO pilots) get significant preferential treatment, especially before any wonder kid selected from birth or whatever. But I don't see any way to force the company to take 100% of all pilots at any particular regional airline with no say whatsoever. That's just not realistic.
you would like nothing better than it to go away. Most current and future regional pilots would be happy with a flow up/down as would I'm sure most mainline ex regional pilots. Seems like a win win to me.
Yes I know Delta isn't having trouble hiring problems but DCI regionals
probably will and that will affect Delta going forward with unreliable feed.
Then what reduce feed? Less passengers for Delta.
11-30-2016 | 07:48 PM
#8762
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,833
Likes: 172
From: window seat
I'm really not seeing that TBH.
In fact many young people view them as the grand impugnors of all other aviators; especially regional ones.
In any case, you think DL should adopt a flow. And if they don't, they might go out of business because they will not be able to staff flights (only AA and maybe JB? will survive the coming flowpocalypse apparently). Fine. But even if they go that route (and they've said recently that they absolutely will not) it would really just be for future new hires. And why wouldn't it be, if the main reason for doing it was to recruit where all other means have failed?
There is no way they'd address a recruitment crisis (even if a flow decision was the fulcrum for that anyway, which I disagree with) by giving seniority list order, starting from the top, including once or multiple turned down pilots guaranteed seniority numbers. In fact, it would be even more beneficial to recruitment if future "golden child" new hires got to skip over pilots already there.
You wouldn't want that, would you?
11-30-2016 | 07:52 PM
#8763
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,833
Likes: 172
From: window seat
There is no need to reduce feed. Mainline pilots can feed the mainline by flying whatever airplane fits that role. We already have large RJ pay rates on the books, and those rates could be tweaked upwards if needed to address recruitment.
11-30-2016 | 08:02 PM
#8764
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 0
Lose money to avoid a flow? Where's your MBA from?
11-30-2016 | 08:40 PM
#8765
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,574
Likes: 75
A large percentage of Endeavor pilots were part of a flow. It didn't work out for most people (why it wasn't honored I have no idea). In today's environment I don't see any reason to place any importance on a carrier with a flow. Why would you want to wait 8 years to flow to American? Any flow to Delta would probably be on a similar timeline, to me it seems like hanging your hat on a flow is giving up years of seniority. A great deal for American if they can get pilots to fly for their sub-par regional carriers for an extra 4 years only to reset their wages back to year 1 after 8 years.
11-30-2016 | 08:41 PM
#8766
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
From: 6 Train - Panhandler
Then by that logic, AA is locked in and guaranteed to absolutely dominate the airline industry, to the possible extent of liquidating their competitors because they have mastered the flow while others have thrown away the keys to the kingdom by not embracing it.
I'm really not seeing that TBH.
Grand impugnors? What in the world are you talking about?
In any case, you think DL should adopt a flow. And if they don't, they might go out of business because they will not be able to staff flights (only AA and maybe JB? will survive the coming flowpocalypse apparently). Fine. But even if they go that route (and they've said recently that they absolutely will not) it would really just be for future new hires. And why wouldn't it be, if the main reason for doing it was to recruit where all other means have failed?
There is no way they'd address a recruitment crisis (even if a flow decision was the fulcrum for that anyway, which I disagree with) by giving seniority list order, starting from the top, including once or multiple turned down pilots guaranteed seniority numbers. In fact, it would be even more beneficial to recruitment if future "golden child" new hires got to skip over pilots already there.
You wouldn't want that, would you?
I'm really not seeing that TBH.
Grand impugnors? What in the world are you talking about?
In any case, you think DL should adopt a flow. And if they don't, they might go out of business because they will not be able to staff flights (only AA and maybe JB? will survive the coming flowpocalypse apparently). Fine. But even if they go that route (and they've said recently that they absolutely will not) it would really just be for future new hires. And why wouldn't it be, if the main reason for doing it was to recruit where all other means have failed?
There is no way they'd address a recruitment crisis (even if a flow decision was the fulcrum for that anyway, which I disagree with) by giving seniority list order, starting from the top, including once or multiple turned down pilots guaranteed seniority numbers. In fact, it would be even more beneficial to recruitment if future "golden child" new hires got to skip over pilots already there.
You wouldn't want that, would you?
11-30-2016 | 08:44 PM
#8767
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
From: 6 Train - Panhandler
So we are in agreement that recruitment addressing may be needed. Are we?
11-30-2016 | 09:25 PM
#8768
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
I don't really know what you're asking here. Are you trying to say that because some buyouts result in mergers due to types of equipment operated, then either all regional WO's should get full seniority at a mainline, NWA pilots should have had to interview for a job, or else there is mass hypocrisy? That makes no sense but it appears its the path you're trying to go down.
Not asking anything except equality. In the current ALPA system only mainline jobs matter and I know all the reasons why. But the current system allows management to have a playground at the regional level that would not be allowed at the mainlines. This is wrong and regionals don't have the power base to stop it like you have at a mainline. My feeling is my job is equally important as a mainlines BUT NEVER AT A MAINLINE PILOTS EXPENSE, POSITION OR JOB!
Under this current system you have protection that I am not afforded but until a regional pilot can move up to a mainline job it is still as important to a regional pilot as it is to a mainline. If GOD forbid there is another 9/11 terrorists attack or for whatever there is a reason for a downturn in the industry DAL can dissolve Endeavor and may never have a job to return to. A mainline may get furloughed but can return to your job once it becomes available again. Your job can not be given away ours can even though we are owned by the same company and under the same UNION.
12-01-2016 | 01:16 AM
#8769
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
What is the difference between the ETD program and a flow? Nothing. Delta already tried the new hire regional up through DL flow and it failed due to unrealistic hiring standards. DL wants control of the whole process and if that's what it takes to get a flow out of Delta then a flow isn't what we want or need.
Last edited by Gearswinger; 12-01-2016 at 01:32 AM.
12-01-2016 | 03:17 AM
#8770
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,648
Likes: 0
A large percentage of Endeavor pilots were part of a flow. It didn't work out for most people (why it wasn't honored I have no idea). In today's environment I don't see any reason to place any importance on a carrier with a flow. Why would you want to wait 8 years to flow to American? Any flow to Delta would probably be on a similar timeline, to me it seems like hanging your hat on a flow is giving up years of seniority. A great deal for American if they can get pilots to fly for their sub-par regional carriers for an extra 4 years only to reset their wages back to year 1 after 8 years.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
