gloopy

There is more than enough lift currently being done at places that likely will never see a flow with anyone, let alone anywhere close to the SSP levels of hiring (almost 700 in 2-3 years plus another 70 to other places, etc). So even if AA regionals have that advantage over DL, Endeavor will still have a huge leg up on many regionals regardless.

Also, the more EDV "stagnates" (that's a pretty relative term to 90% of the pilots in this industry the last 10-15+ years) the more they will have to incentives new hires. A flow incentive merely band aids the substandard pay and work rules by using hiring as a carrot to retain pilots instead of retaining them with market based compensation.

gloopy

Haha, nice try.

I've said for a while that more money is needed. And I'm in favor of pref hiring of EDV pilots at DL. 700 in barely 3 years is pretty good though, and a flow wouldn't ever exceed that anyway. From a new hire's POV, maintaining pretty high hiring numbers as is would be better than a top down flow where they'd have to wait their full turn in line, which is something DL isn't going to do regardless.

Now, what you may see in the future is some kind of flow-style program along the lines of an ab initio scheme, for new hire pilots only, most of which are currently in high school or earlier. That is something they are looking at. Even then there will be numerous "gateways" they will have to go through; it won't simply be a matter of entitlement because they got hired at a regional. They will have to essentially get hired by DL at every level according to DL's criteria. That might happen and is being looked at.

But the notion that DL needs to implement a flow with EDV or else AA will rule the world is simply not the case.

gloopy

You're blurring more lines than you're clarifying here. DL could liquidate while EDV remains. Don't think it can't happen. Pan Am, Eastern, etc. If something were to happen that truly endangered the airline, they could easily sell off EDV or spin them off to make quick cash while dismembering the husk of the former mainline.

I agree that mainlines have more "power" but ironically they have more limited leverage than you think. Short of agreeing to massive concessions (IMO far more than it would actually even cost due to the value of flexibility to management) there is no way outside of holding the line during a strike to achieve what you are advocating for as a unilateral effort by a mainline or "the union".

The best leverage will come from us holding the lines and not allowing more viable airframes, the "pilot shortage" forcing costs significantly upward, and maybe strike(s) at the regional level. CMR settled for an industry leading contract at the time, but no scope. That was a recipe for disaster especially since it occurred during a growth phase for the lift but during a relative glut of pilots across the system.

A legally striking regional today would have WAY more leverage. And I would think they'd get some help from mainlines and the rest of the industry. I'd gladly pay a relatively large assessment to give them all the leverage they needed to raise the bar and squash the model. And I think striking or furloughed ALPA pilots should get preference anyway. UAL does a much better job at that than we do, but the guard is changing and hopefully we can as well.

gloopy

What is the average per month right now? 700 in 2-3 years is close to that already.

Nantonaku

Delta tried that, it didn't work, remember?

msprj2

I'm not defending cheap labor. All I'm arguing about is Delta keeping up with AA regionals.
If they don't then you know the answer. I personally don't care but if delta wants reliable feed
They have to stop AA regionals from being the most lucrative.

Nantonaku

It doesn't take an MBA to see that regional feed is being priced out of the market anyway. Starting pay 8 years ago was less than $20,000 today it is $60,000. There is a reason Major airline contracts aren't pushing the line on scope, they are just using it as a bargaining piece - they never intended to get more scope. The regional model of the last 15 years is done.

msprj2

Endeavor is a great place to work and is slowly growing but at the expense of other regionals, what happens as that well runs dry? Will we lose our own to AA regionals who have a flow?

AnotherWriter

Shouldn't the fact that our radio callsign is apparently "Envoy" entitle us to their flow

It isn't uncommon to hear newer FOs saying if they could do it over they would probably be at Envoy/PSA/PDT. Seeing where everything is now... I would probably have looked harder at Envoy honestly. Hindsight is 20/20 though and 9E is a great place to be regardless.

msprj2

Maybe so, but the majors need pilots as bad as us. If pay goes back to $20k no more college educated pilots.
People are protesting for $15/HR min wage that's $30k to
Push a broom. You think regional pilots are overpaid? There aren't enough pilots as is!!!