New Flow Realities
12-07-2017 | 03:09 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 12
If there is attrition outside the flow, it is minimal, certainly among captains. I’ve only flown with a handful of captains who even say they maintain a log book. Yes, they could have one printed from Envoy records if need be, but these are guys who have given up on anything besides the flow. One guy said he had a few friends hired outside the flow. Not positive they were both to AA, but they had been vigorously pursuing job fairs for a while AND they both have what we can refer to as “additional attributes” that most in the industry weren’t born with.
I think the reality is if you can’t significantly stand out from the crowd, whether with Space Shuttle command time or the ability to add “diversity” to a company, you are just another resume and it will take a while for your number to come up to even interview.
YMMV, just my .02 and that is probably all it is worth.
I think the reality is if you can’t significantly stand out from the crowd, whether with Space Shuttle command time or the ability to add “diversity” to a company, you are just another resume and it will take a while for your number to come up to even interview.
YMMV, just my .02 and that is probably all it is worth.
I agree with this.
12-07-2017 | 10:10 PM
#53
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 30
Likes: 1
Actually I know of a few 175 guys that have at least a year to flow that are going to Delta and Southwest. I know Delta is hiring a lot. I've been told SWA is advertising 900 in 2018 but will hire as much as the training center can handle which can take them well over 1000. SWA has the highest capacity to take new hires among all the legacies right now. Something is stirring up over there for sure and its beyond just Hawaii.
I know a lot of people frown on them because they think its just a glorified regional with 5 leg days. I've seen a lot of SWA trips and that stereotype isn't true at all. The bulk of their trips are 3 days average about 3 legs a day. I had to dig really hard to finally find a 5 leg day. It wasn't even that bad. It was LBB-DAL-HOU-HRL-HOU-DAL. You started at 1600 and were back and done at 2300. That was the only 5 leg day on that trip. They don't have any of those up in the North. As you all know it will only take seconds to find a 5 leg day in an envoy bid packet. On top of that it probably has a 2.5 hour sit somewhere in those 5 legs too.
They also pretty awesome reserve rules too. There is not a long call out. But you get a minimum of 15 days off a month guaranteed. You'll have AM or PM reserve. I don't think there is airport standby. They also pay distance flown. One trip equals something like 160 miles. If you overblock then you will still get more trips by the way. Each reserve day pays a minimum of 6 trips. If you get called in then each day goes to 6.5 trips minimum and if one of your days ends up being over 6 trips then you will get the difference added to on top your 90 trips regardless of what little your usage was the rest of the month. Each day pays a minimum of 6.5 trips. Its also easy to give away reserve blocks or pick some up even among line holders. Apparently all the new hires are getting their ultimate base of choice within 6 months of their hire date. People fly an average of 110 trips per month over there and still average 16 days off while doing it. They have a 10 year upgrade now but they think anyone hiring after 2014 and beyond will upgrade in 6-7 years.
Give it a shot. All I hear about is that the application process through the interview is extremely painless. One guy told me he was in and out of the whole thing in 3 hours and only about 45 minutes to an hour was actually interviewing.
Anyone who has at least a year to flow should be keeping there app up to date. Don't get fixated on the carrot in front of you. If you actually look around you'll notice that we are chasing this flow carrot in front of us right through a whole garden of carrots. You just got to get off the horse and dig them up.
I know a lot of people frown on them because they think its just a glorified regional with 5 leg days. I've seen a lot of SWA trips and that stereotype isn't true at all. The bulk of their trips are 3 days average about 3 legs a day. I had to dig really hard to finally find a 5 leg day. It wasn't even that bad. It was LBB-DAL-HOU-HRL-HOU-DAL. You started at 1600 and were back and done at 2300. That was the only 5 leg day on that trip. They don't have any of those up in the North. As you all know it will only take seconds to find a 5 leg day in an envoy bid packet. On top of that it probably has a 2.5 hour sit somewhere in those 5 legs too.
They also pretty awesome reserve rules too. There is not a long call out. But you get a minimum of 15 days off a month guaranteed. You'll have AM or PM reserve. I don't think there is airport standby. They also pay distance flown. One trip equals something like 160 miles. If you overblock then you will still get more trips by the way. Each reserve day pays a minimum of 6 trips. If you get called in then each day goes to 6.5 trips minimum and if one of your days ends up being over 6 trips then you will get the difference added to on top your 90 trips regardless of what little your usage was the rest of the month. Each day pays a minimum of 6.5 trips. Its also easy to give away reserve blocks or pick some up even among line holders. Apparently all the new hires are getting their ultimate base of choice within 6 months of their hire date. People fly an average of 110 trips per month over there and still average 16 days off while doing it. They have a 10 year upgrade now but they think anyone hiring after 2014 and beyond will upgrade in 6-7 years.
Give it a shot. All I hear about is that the application process through the interview is extremely painless. One guy told me he was in and out of the whole thing in 3 hours and only about 45 minutes to an hour was actually interviewing.
Anyone who has at least a year to flow should be keeping there app up to date. Don't get fixated on the carrot in front of you. If you actually look around you'll notice that we are chasing this flow carrot in front of us right through a whole garden of carrots. You just got to get off the horse and dig them up.
12-08-2017 | 09:20 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,867
Likes: 117
Every captain I've flown with so far, unless he was an Envoy lifer, fits this description. But they've all been less than 2 years from flowing. I still maintain that even if you're close to flowing and dead set on AA, at least keep that application up to date with AA to try and jump a few spots ahead in seniority but I haven't gotten the impression they are even doing that.
I agree with this.
I agree with this.
I was supposed to Flow to AA by 2019. I've been in DAL for a little bit over a year. Most of my NH friends at Envoy are staying and waiting for the flow.
I would lost around 250k + years of seniority waiting for AA. The flow should be a backup plan for everybody, not their first option, unless that person doesn't have a degree.
I wish I could see more people from Envoy getting hired everywhere. Most CAs I've flown at DAL talk about how good Envoy pilots are. Training department and recruitment also knows that. But it seems there's no motivation for it, because AA is always around the corner.
12-09-2017 | 08:14 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,523
Likes: 0
Incorrect. Less than 240ish flowed this year and 120ish left for other places.
12-15-2017 | 02:45 PM
#58
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 281
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It has become apparent that the flow isn't going to be honored. This year we've seen hiring halts and maximum metering each month. All those "projections" used to sell new hires a 6 year ticket to AA are now looking like Monopoly money.
The seniority list that the union puts out several times a year is a really good indicator. Over the past two years, Pilot A has watched his "projected" flow date change further into the future with each publication. Last week in fact, a new list was published that essentially added an additional three months to everyone on the list. This happens regularly.
While technically not a violation, AA hired 84 in November. Envoy sent 25. If the contract was honored as written, 42 would have flowed by the close of business today. Instead, AA/Envoy chose to use the language allowing the company to send 25 per month only due to "operational necessity." It has even been stated by Envoy management that no more than 25 would flow per month in any circumstance.
With the indentured servitude one has to put in just to work at Envoy, at least if there was a light at the end of the tunnel, it might make sense to wait it out. Turns out that light was just a match the company lit and they keep walking backwards as you watch it get dim.
Envoy is very close to being in serious trouble, along with many other regionals. Forcing a new hire to upgrade before he even completes FO training is a solid statement that the company is in serious trouble trying to fill all the bodies needed to fly the airplanes and schedule AAG wants. It will be very interesting to see the new hire numbers next month now that the Endeavor TA is active.
The seniority list that the union puts out several times a year is a really good indicator. Over the past two years, Pilot A has watched his "projected" flow date change further into the future with each publication. Last week in fact, a new list was published that essentially added an additional three months to everyone on the list. This happens regularly.
While technically not a violation, AA hired 84 in November. Envoy sent 25. If the contract was honored as written, 42 would have flowed by the close of business today. Instead, AA/Envoy chose to use the language allowing the company to send 25 per month only due to "operational necessity." It has even been stated by Envoy management that no more than 25 would flow per month in any circumstance.
With the indentured servitude one has to put in just to work at Envoy, at least if there was a light at the end of the tunnel, it might make sense to wait it out. Turns out that light was just a match the company lit and they keep walking backwards as you watch it get dim.
Envoy is very close to being in serious trouble, along with many other regionals. Forcing a new hire to upgrade before he even completes FO training is a solid statement that the company is in serious trouble trying to fill all the bodies needed to fly the airplanes and schedule AAG wants. It will be very interesting to see the new hire numbers next month now that the Endeavor TA is active.
12-16-2017 | 09:12 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 501
Likes: 0
From: A320 FO
Just shows how concerned and frightened about the future of the operation. They are putting up a very good poker face. Now if our unions would capitalize on that....
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12-17-2017 | 03:40 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Just curious what DOH is flowing at Envoy. I was Chatting w a captain before non reving and he said he had 12 months before he gets drafted and was hired dec 07. Did I hear Him correctly? Also, I heard Your training Dept got some gains. Or was that a rumor? Feds asked me what it would take to bypass my flow. What he thought was fair was absolutely comical. His eyes got awfully big when I told him what it would take to keep me from bypassing w a retention package.
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