They won't hire those of us that spent years flying on-demand 135 in busted-up, antiquated, fuel-guzzling turbojets with dozens of deferral stickers, through horrendous wx in the dark, either (SWA is a notable exception); simply SURVIVING that (some colleagues did not), whilst passing sim checkrides every six months, avoiding getting violated, and learning when to PUSH BACK on matters of fuel, wx, and mx are 1000% more "relevant" in comparison to ANYTHING the military has to offer airlines. I don't care what the job was.

That's NOT to say military aviation experience isn't useful--it's simply that "complete the mission because lives are at stake" doesn't translate to operating Part 25 aircraft (in an air carrier capacity) in any MEANINGFUL way (requiring preferential notice) in the sorting of applicants. It just doesn't. It *never* did.

All else is sanctimony and obfuscation.

Maybe the classic, fanatical airline preference for military has more to do with hiring future MANAGEMENT; officers are well trained for management roles (and a great many are rather unsympathetic to union concerns by DEFAULT)...there's no denying that.

 

I would tend to agree with most of this. When I actually talk to mil pilots, they don't over embellish their time like some of the situations I have heard here. I will however admit, combat sucks and those that have been in it, my gratitude goes out to you. I simply don't think that, for the 121 world, should trump someone that has been doing 121 flying for 5+ years.

Listen, at the end of the day we want to all succeed and I think the issue non military pilots have is that we are put a rung down simply because we didn't fly for the military, while the military aviators are placed a rung higher simply because they did. It is an unfair advantage that in my opinion isn't justified anymore and is simply around due to the old way of doing things. This is one industry where it seems just being associated with the military automatically gets you a leg up regardless of who you are competing with for the same job.

For some of the examples listed about crappy situations, well they all happen in every single field of aviation. Engine failures, gear failures, given too little or too much fuel, diversions, sickness, check rides etc.

The ironic thing about this whole argument and that kinda makes my point for me is that we have a diverse set of pilots from all walks of life flying for the airlines and none of them are more safe or more prone to accident than another, at least in the jet world. So if being from the military was that much more of an advantage, why are planes not falling out of the sky every time an emergency happens and a civilian pilot is at the controls? Why isn't the FAA stepping in and mandating that there always needs to be a competent military pilot in the flight deck?

My guess, this whole thing goes back to the "good ole boys club" and practices from decades ago, when I admit, it mattered. In this day and age I think the gap has closed.

 

Yet, the irony is that vets (commissioned or not) who did stuff besides aviation are largely afforded no more preference than any other 121 applicant. (My understanding is that UA was asked if vets got any additional points if they weren't military trained aviators) This is regardless of the types of leadership, deployment, schools, etc., experience that a guy has. I'd argue that a rifle squad or platoon leader is probably better at dynamic leadership than some aviators, and if it's pure management stuff, then some combat support and service support trades offer pretty good experience. Oh well.

 

Completely true. I'm addressing more the popular perception that military officers (specifically that officer aviators are managers FIRST, that cannot be denied) are "better equipped" for airline management...as seen by pilot managers.

It's totally plausible that officers/NCOs in other MOSs are completely INVISIBLE to pilot managers (especially ones with a military background). I've never heard anyone compliment management as being particularly...imaginative. Have you?

Airline management is ALWAYS going to biased toward what they perceive as more "management," and for a myriad of largely indefensible reasons, none of which have any meaningful bearing on which candidate is (actually) better qualified to operate transport category aircraft conservatively.

That's my theory, at any rate. I seriously doubt that airline management (in general), for all their grotesque inadequacies, actually BELIEVES that military aviators are superior pilots. No, it's far more likely they've been hiring future chief pilots, et al, and they've been doing so for DECADES.

 

And in my class all the military passed first time and 4 CFIs failed checkrides. See how anecdotes don't mean much?

 

You see that's exactly what I tried to say in my post. You can't predict training outcome based on pilots background.

 

You definitely can but I don't think the #1 deciding factor for hiring is how likely they are to pass training.

 

Provable nonsense. "Passing training" is something the VAST majority of the pilot stock is rather good at. It is not exceptional by any accepted definition, and therefore CANNOT be the "#1 deciding factor" by major airlines.

 

Another person who thinks their experiences are unique to their past.

You don’t think that military pilots fly busted up, antiquated aircraft that guzzle fuel with maintenance issues through horrendous weather in the dark, simply surviving (some colleagues did not) while passing sim and flight check rides, avoiding getting violated, while learning when to push back?

 

His entire point was to refute what a previous poster mentioned. The previous post made it out like only military pilots have those kinds of experiences.

Other than being shot at (some of you) and dropping ordnance, both of which don't really prepare you for the 121 world, there is anything unique about the "flying" aspect of it. I will give the Navy pilots their due when it comes to landing on a ship, but again, not really something you need for 121 world.

I would like to add now that everyone has fully measured various parts of their body, I think points have been made to show it really is irrelevant other than hiring managers most likely came from the military as well. Its a club, you are either in and get an expedited pass or you're not. Those who are not get to sit back and watch people who are brand new to the 121 world jump the seniority line for no other reason. It isn't fair and we are talking about huge sums of money that pilots miss out on just because of this practice.