Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 3084771)

It's funny, when I started at Eagle the union used to tell us to tell them, show me where in the contract I'm obligated to do that? When they couldn't it became, well if I'm not obligated then it's just a request, and I'm not agreeing to the request.
If they pointed to some section that was uber vague and they were taking liberties, we were told to remind them they aren't your supervisor, and to request to be connected to a chief pilot who would make the call. Always remain polite.
Somehow, somewhere it became fly it and grieve it.... never ever understood that. If the CBA was clear, then you weren't obligated. seemed pretty simple. The unclear ones, the Chief Pilot would tell you to do it and then you'd fly it and grieve it. Scheduling was/is not a supervisor.... (at least they used to not be)

Originally Posted by THKooj (Post 3084971)

THIS forum is for ENVOY pilots.

Originally Posted by THKooj (Post 3084971)

THIS forum is for ENVOY pilots.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3084963)

I am not wanting to start a riot or anything over this, more just thought provoking conversation.

Isn't this mindset though giving all the power to the company? I mean listen, most CPO's are going to side with management if it comes down to something operational, even if it is against the CBA or in a grey area. This leaves the door open for us to be taken advantage of in terms of schedule, qol etc. I understand if we are in the right we can still get paid, perhaps get a day off back etc, however we still need to put in all that extra work and time to get what was originally ours back.

To me that seems unfair and has potential to really cause people angst if the right circumstances come up. I mean, what if I have an event I am needed at but the company decides they need me, even though I am legal to say no the CPO tells me to fly it anyway. I guess I just don't understand the mentality, if I know I am right, why do I have to do it?

At the end of the day the company isn't going to let me do things the contract doesn't allow, so why should we allow the same liberties to them? I know this are rare circumstances, but it is worth having a conversation about them nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3084963)

I am not wanting to start a riot or anything over this, more just thought provoking conversation.

Isn't this mindset though giving all the power to the company? I mean listen, most CPO's are going to side with management if it comes down to something operational, even if it is against the CBA or in a grey area. This leaves the door open for us to be taken advantage of in terms of schedule, qol etc. I understand if we are in the right we can still get paid, perhaps get a day off back etc, however we still need to put in all that extra work and time to get what was originally ours back.

To me that seems unfair and has potential to really cause people angst if the right circumstances come up. I mean, what if I have an event I am needed at but the company decides they need me, even though I am legal to say no the CPO tells me to fly it anyway. I guess I just don't understand the mentality, if I know I am right, why do I have to do it?

At the end of the day the company isn't going to let me do things the contract doesn't allow, so why should we allow the same liberties to them? I know this are rare circumstances, but it is worth having a conversation about them nonetheless.

Originally Posted by THKooj (Post 3084971)

I still find it humorous that you have to inflate your ego by coming back here and talking about the old times like you were and are some kind of Yoda about everything. I think 99.99% of the folks on this forum just disregard your postings as the rantings of someone that is unstable.

Let me help clarify some things for you. Firstly, Envoy is NOT the "old American Eagle" of the post 9/11 and Great Recession days. That carrier was owned outright by AMR who did things totally different than AAG management. I know it must pain you but the fact is that the "old flow" was worthless because it was developed by AMR management. AAG is the new American and they and Envoy and they are FAR superior to the AMR days. Just go take a look at how many have flowed post AAG vs. pre AAG. The company designed it like that. They want the companies intertwined and together so that you really are American on day one. That isn't how it was before so you should reminisce with the other 2 guys over on TA. THIS forum is for ENVOY pilots.

Originally Posted by Pedro4President (Post 3085181)

I think 100% of the folks on this forum just disregard your postings as the rantings of someone that is unstable.

Originally Posted by dera (Post 3085126)

True. Nothing you can do about it though. Refusing a directive given by your supervisor is insubordination. Just remember, CS is not your supervisor.

And I wouldn't say CPOs side with management. We have very good CPOs right now. *****ing about it on social media just won't fix any of these issues. Use the correct channels.

Originally Posted by THKooj (Post 3084971)

I still find it humorous that you have to inflate your ego by coming back here and talking about the old times like you were and are some kind of Yoda about everything. I think 99.99% of the folks on this forum just disregard your postings as the rantings of someone that is unstable.

Let me help clarify some things for you. Firstly, Envoy is NOT the "old American Eagle" of the post 9/11 and Great Recession days. That carrier was owned outright by AMR who did things totally different than AAG management. I know it must pain you but the fact is that the "old flow" was worthless because it was developed by AMR management. AAG is the new American and they and Envoy and they are FAR superior to the AMR days. Just go take a look at how many have flowed post AAG vs. pre AAG. The company designed it like that. They want the companies intertwined and together so that you really are American on day one. That isn't how it was before so you should reminisce with the other 2 guys over on TA. THIS forum is for ENVOY pilots.