ENVOY presented with details on new contract
11-13-2014 | 07:40 AM
#112
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
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Funny that they can offer an immediate increase in flow to 30/month if we agree to concessions, but allowing more than 20/month to abide by the arbitrator's decision is a hardship that will disrupt the operation. Unless we agree to concessions. Can there even be the slightest illusion that they aren't willfully disregarding an arbitrator's decision in order to punish a pilot group? It is CRYSTAL clear that they are REQUIRED to release enough pilots to maintain an aggregate 50% of AA new-hires from the beginning of the 824 flow period, unless it is impossible. At this point I guarantee that they are far enough behind to warrant releasing 30/month anyway. But, unless we agree to concessions, it's a hardship for the operation.
If it's so easy to get rid of our airplanes and dish out flying to other providers, it should be no problem to open the throttle on flow. If they are lying about that, then their offer of 30/month in any TA is also a lie that they won't honor (and all their threats are quite a bit more empty). If they are being truthful and it's within their capability to flow 30/month right now if we sign, then they are willfully failing to abide by the arbitration award right now.
They are screwing us, illegally, in order to punish us.
11-13-2014 | 10:56 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 255
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One of our MEC members is stating that the reason there is no TA is because management refuses to place a better flow or substantial fleet plan on the table. I'm not sure what negotiations he is watching, maybe it is the APFA flight attendants, but AA and Envoy management are offering a minimum flow of 30 per month and 360 per year. I may not be a math genius but 30 per month and 360 per year MINIMUM is greater than 20 per month and 240 per year. If our MEC had shared management's proposal with you, you would already know that.
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
Post number 2, and claim not to be a spy? Or maybe the fact that you are saying the MEC is lying, but you know all of the actual facts that were presented behind closed doors that only the NC and MEC would have.
I'll think I'll go with management stooly.
11-13-2014 | 11:14 AM
#114
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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The truth also is that he is a 2-post management lackey attempting to negotiate directly with the pilots. Clearly, they're desperate and still believe Envoy is filled to a majority with clueless saps willing to fall for the same tricks over and over.
11-13-2014 | 11:17 AM
#115
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
Funny that they can offer an immediate increase in flow to 30/month if we agree to concessions, but allowing more than 20/month to abide by the arbitrator's decision is a hardship that will disrupt the operation. Unless we agree to concessions. Can there even be the slightest illusion that they aren't willfully disregarding an arbitrator's decision in order to punish a pilot group? It is CRYSTAL clear that they are REQUIRED to release enough pilots to maintain an aggregate 50% of AA new-hires from the beginning of the 824 flow period, unless it is impossible. At this point I guarantee that they are far enough behind to warrant releasing 30/month anyway. But, unless we agree to concessions, it's a hardship for the operation.
Say hi to the newest shill.
11-13-2014 | 02:13 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
One of our MEC members is stating that the reason there is no TA is because management refuses to place a better flow or substantial fleet plan on the table. I'm not sure what negotiations he is watching, maybe it is the APFA flight attendants, but AA and Envoy management are offering a minimum flow of 30 per month and 360 per year. I may not be a math genius but 30 per month and 360 per year MINIMUM is greater than 20 per month and 240 per year. If our MEC had shared management's proposal with you, you would already know that.
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
11-13-2014 | 02:37 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,867
Likes: 117
One of our MEC members is stating that the reason there is no TA is because management refuses to place a better flow or substantial fleet plan on the table. I'm not sure what negotiations he is watching, maybe it is the APFA flight attendants, but AA and Envoy management are offering a minimum flow of 30 per month and 360 per year. I may not be a math genius but 30 per month and 360 per year MINIMUM is greater than 20 per month and 240 per year. If our MEC had shared management's proposal with you, you would already know that.
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
With reference to a "substantial fleet plan," you may recall that a year ago, management offered a minimum fleet plan of 170 aircraft (2 times higher than the only other fleet plan in the regional industry) but Envoy pilots rejected it after the MEC told us the pilot shortage would cause management to come crawling back to the table. In reality, management went out and placed 40 of our aircraft at cheaper regionals and is now back offering us the remaining 130. Hard to offer a fleet plan greater than the orders and options you have on the table and don't forget that we're the ones that turned down the fleet plan.
What the MEC is not telling you, is that they have been told that there is a deadline coming up and if the Envoy pilots don't ratify a deal in short order, more of the remaining orders are already slated to go to another carrier.
So while the gentleman from New York is telling you that management isn't offering an enhanced flow (untrue) and a substantial fleet plan (management is offering us the remaining orders and options), the truth is that we are heading toward a cliff and no one on the MEC feels that it is appropriate to tell you the truth.
Some of you claim that I am a management spy, which is not true. I am just an average line pilot with his ear to the ground. But regardless of what you believe I am, the truth is that the MEC is playing games and hiding facts from the pilots whose jobs are on the line. You might want to ask "why"?
30 a month once the 1st 175 arrives at Envoy. Right??? Because that's what my rep told me. Is not 30 a month once we ratify a contract, is once we get the first airplane.
Im going to keep voting NO unless there's a real career progression for the pilots after the 824s, a real fleet plan and snap backs if the company fail to follow the contract.
11-14-2014 | 08:47 AM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
From: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
AAG is all about this 12/4 payscale. It's been said that ALPA tried to negotiate something where if you're stuck as an 8yr FO or 18yr capt, the rates wouldn't apply to you. But, if you choose not to take an upgrade or flow to AA, then you're stuck on the 12/4 scale. It still sucks, but seems way more reasonable and at least a little bit fair! But AAG won't go for it. Now they're trying to bust scope and basically have unlimited 70 seat flying which ultimately means less airplanes at mainline. Which then means no flow or a sloooow flow. So they want everyone at the regional level trapped on a 12/4 payscale.
Their ultimate goal is becoming clearer and clearer. I just hope we're not dumb enough to bite on a $hitty a$$ deal.
Their ultimate goal is becoming clearer and clearer. I just hope we're not dumb enough to bite on a $hitty a$$ deal.
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