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this the person to thank for the B-scale at AAG-Tony Gutierrez former envoy ALPA MEC Chairman now persona non grata at AA.
In diplomacy, the term persona non grata (Latin, plural: personae non gratae), literally meaning "an unwelcome person," |
Originally Posted by tom11011
(Post 1781589)
... Envoy is going out one way or the other so you better start getting your logbook added up and fresh resumes out...
Originally Posted by tom11011
(Post 1781589)
Bad information you say? Your MEC is you, just a bunch of pilots. You've been there 25 years, where was your experience when it was needed most?
Your heart may bleed but maybe you should examine your role in all this. There has been a lot said about not basing decisions like how to vote on 'fear'. I agree, but it isn't fear that tells you that you don't have enough fuel to get where you want to go. It is ration and logic and numbers, tangible facts. And we cannot win this fight just by throwing a tantrum. We will all only end up losing a job. We have to pick our battles, and pick the ones we can win, not the ones destined to lose. So with 'fear' we can also add 'anger', another EMOTION which is the broader subject category which has no place in making important decisions, whether flying airplanes, choosing stock market movements,...or how we should vote in the next couple weeks. |
does anyone think AAG is worried about millions while making billions??
can you fathom the order of magnitude this represents? |
In NASCAR ounces make pounds
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airlines management does not care in hull losses, it is all part of business. why would they care about anything after that.
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While oil is $57 a barrel and crashing, I don't know how anybody can consider voting in concessions. You are basically just voting in a bigger bonus for Parker and his homies. Last I heard, he just finished his 4th bathroom made out of pure gold with the PSA deal.
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Originally Posted by CLT Guy
(Post 1781750)
Absolutely not. I am just a pilot that makes his paycheck like everyone else. I am, however, not blinded by unrealistic expectations.
I do believe you are correct in that perhaps they would have been better off saying yes the first time around *IF* they're going to make a 180 and suddenly vote yes on this TA- hindsight is certainly 20/20. What is confusing to me is that there appeared to be a he11 no slant on these Envoy threads to the first two TAs, but now there's more hesitation with this new TA. If a group is going to take a "burn it down" mentality, you gotta follow through I think. Otherwise, why not just say yes the first time around and save everyone some pain? Doesn't make sense. That's why I was asking a bunch of posts back what's changed with this new TA. I thought they got some sort of sweetener that was making the castor oil taste better. Stepping back and observing the big picture, is there any wonder why young people don't want to enter this profession? |
Any news from that phone conference tonight? Anything worth mentioning?
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf
(Post 1781996)
Any news from that phone conference tonight? Anything worth mentioning?
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Just received this e-mail from Envoy.
Envoy Air Inc. and its pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, have reached a Tentative Agreement (TA). If ratified by the pilot group, this TA will offer increased flow to American Airlines for current Envoy pilots, a fleet commitment of 40 Embraer 175 aircraft, and an additional 90 Embraer 175 options. This agreement will also offer flow through to future new hire pilots. No interview is necessary to flow to American Airlines. The tenants of this TA make this an industry leading flow through agreement. Pilots who have not yet reached the ATP minimum flight time can still apply and be considered for an interview. Selected pilots will be placed into new hire training once ATP requirements are met. We are hiring into both First Officer positions and our Pipeline Instructor Program. Apply today to get your career started with Envoy! For more information regarding the Pipeline Instructor Program or First Officer positions with Envoy, please visit our website at Envoy Careers LP | Envoy. With questions regarding employment openings please email us at [email protected] or [email protected]. |
Originally Posted by AnotherEagleGuy
(Post 1781997)
It is permissible to drop the "F" bomb on Union teleconferences, but only by the MEC chair.
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LOL'd I see the PSA, PDT, Mesa, TSA turds salivating on envoys Ejets. Vote NO eny pilots, do it for the industry! Your votes affects our future!!
BTW where is Mr. Gardner? Heard he is still out there "trying to lie" once again.. Good Luck. |
Originally Posted by skypilot35
(Post 1782047)
Just received this e-mail from Envoy.
Envoy Air Inc. and its pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, have reached a Tentative Agreement (TA). If ratified by the pilot group, this TA will offer increased flow to American Airlines for current Envoy pilots, a fleet commitment of 40 Embraer 175 aircraft, and an additional 90 Embraer 175 options. This agreement will also offer flow through to future new hire pilots. No interview is necessary to flow to American Airlines. The tenants of this TA make this an industry leading flow through agreement. Pilots who have not yet reached the ATP minimum flight time can still apply and be considered for an interview. Selected pilots will be placed into new hire training once ATP requirements are met. We are hiring into both First Officer positions and our Pipeline Instructor Program. Apply today to get your career started with Envoy! For more information regarding the Pipeline Instructor Program or First Officer positions with Envoy, please visit our website at Envoy Careers LP | Envoy. With questions regarding employment openings please email us at [email protected] or [email protected]. |
Originally Posted by RJ Pilot
(Post 1782071)
LOL'd I see the PSA, PDT, Mesa, TSA turds salivating on envoys Ejets. Vote NO eny pilots, do it for the industry! Your votes affects our future!!
BTW where is Mr. Gardner? Heard he is still out there "trying to lie" once again.. Good Luck. We didn't take anyone's flying. We just are flying planes that were on their way to being parked. |
Originally Posted by Pilottim79
(Post 1782092)
As a "TSA turd" I don't salivate over anyone's airplanes. I am happy and content to fly what we have. I don't think we would have gotten any new flying at all if other carriers hadn't taken it upon themselves to park airplanes.
We didn't take anyone's flying. We just are flying planes that were on their way to being parked. |
Originally Posted by RJ Pilot
(Post 1782071)
LOL'd I see the PSA, PDT, Mesa, TSA turds salivating on envoys Ejets. Vote NO eny pilots, do it for the industry! Your votes affects our future!!
They are trying to drive the different pilot groups apart. You are proof that they are succeeding. Wake up and realize that you are the problem. |
Originally Posted by skypilot35
(Post 1782047)
Envoy Air Inc. and its pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, have reached a Tentative Agreement (TA). If ratified by the pilot group, this TA will offer increased flow to American Airlines for current Envoy pilots, a fleet commitment of 40 Embraer 175 aircraft, and an additional 90 Embraer 175 options. This agreement will also offer flow through to future new hire pilots. No interview is necessary to flow to American Airlines. The tenants of this TA make this an industry leading flow through agreement.
Pilots who have not yet reached the ATP minimum flight time can still apply and be considered for an interview. Selected pilots will be placed into new hire training once ATP requirements are met. We are hiring into both First Officer positions and our Pipeline Instructor Program. Apply today to get your career started with Envoy! And American is allowing guys to flow from Envoy to American without an interview when the flow takes place? How does American control the "quality" (however American determines "quality") of the pilots they hire? |
Originally Posted by globalexpress
(Post 1782179)
90 options? What does that mean? AMR has 90 options to dangle in front of ALL of their regional feeders to fight over or those are guaranteed to come to Envoy?
And American is allowing guys to flow from Envoy to American without an interview when the flow takes place? How does American control the "quality" (however American determines "quality") of the pilots they hire? AE to AA flow is no interview, no medical exams, nothing, just pick your bags and go to training. Quality? Envoy have one of the hardes training and interviews out there. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782182)
90 E-175 options are guaranteed to come to envoy. That doesn't mean AAG can't use RAH options.
AE to AA flow is no interview, no medical exams, nothing, just pick your bags and go to training. Quality? Envoy have one of the hardes training and interviews out there. |
Originally Posted by globalexpress
(Post 1782179)
90 options? What does that mean? AMR has 90 options to dangle in front of ALL of their regional feeders to fight over or those are guaranteed to come to Envoy? if they exercise the options which they placed with the firm 60 order
And American is allowing guys to flow from Envoy to American without an interview when the flow takes place? How does American control the "quality"(however American determines "quality") of the pilots they hire? |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782182)
90 E-175 options are guaranteed to come to envoy. That doesn't mean AAG can't use RAH options.
AE to AA flow is no interview, no medical exams, nothing, just pick your bags and go to training. Quality? Envoy have one of the hardes training and interviews out there. OK, so that's good flow from an Envoy pilot's perspective. Didn't mean to imply that Envoy pilots weren't quality pilots. It's just that if I were running an airline, I'd want to interview my own guys/gals and not be dependent upon some other entity's judgement. For example, if a pilot shortage really does materialize someday, maybe Envoy (or any regional with flow for that matter) starts digging deep into the gene pool just to fill seats. One would think American (or United, Delta, whoever) would want to screen their own guys/gals to protect against a scenario like that for example. |
If this TA does pass, what would the potential junior bases be going forward? Would any new bases get introduced with the addition of the E-175s or would they likely be added to the existing ORD, DFW and New York bases?
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Originally Posted by globalexpress
(Post 1782211)
So all those jets weren't guaranteed to come to Envoy in the first two TAs? Just trying to keep my facts straight.
OK, so that's good flow from an Envoy pilot's perspective. Didn't mean to imply that Envoy pilots weren't quality pilots. It's just that if I were running an airline, I'd want to interview my own guys/gals and not be dependent upon some other entity's judgement. For example, if a pilot shortage really does materialize someday, maybe Envoy (or any regional with flow for that matter) starts digging deep into the gene pool just to fill seats. One would think American (or United, Delta, whoever) would want to screen their own guys/gals to protect against a scenario like that for example. |
Just FYI - people hired at eagle got a high level of scrutiny in the early '00. Cog, psych, hearing, x-ray. Full medical work up. Sim was a 707. While it wasn't an AA interview, it was by far the most intense regional hiring process out there.
That's just for those people at that time. Eagle is a bunch of different airlines mashed together who did not go through that process, and neither have those hired since then. |
Originally Posted by Alex14
(Post 1782214)
If this TA does pass, what would the potential junior bases be going forward? Would any new bases get introduced with the addition of the E-175s or would they likely be added to the existing ORD, DFW and New York bases?
Compass is getting the first 20 and those are most likely going out in LAX. IF for some reason compass doesnt do their AA 175 flying out in LAX, it is possible some of the Envoy 175s could start out there - but with Compass already opening a LAX base, I dont see it really likely they would go elsewhere. Again - all speculation. This assumes JFK/LGA closes and Envoy is left with an ORD and DFW base. |
Originally Posted by PDTpilotXX
(Post 1782192)
100% False on the options. 100% true on the flows.
The first 90 e-175 options that AA place in order with the 60 orders in December 2013 come to envoy. If they want to activate PSA options, RAH options, SKywest Options they can do it and those airplanes won't come here. What's false in my statement? |
Originally Posted by globalexpress
(Post 1782211)
So all those jets weren't guaranteed to come to Envoy in the first two TAs? Just trying to keep my facts straight.
OK, so that's good flow from an Envoy pilot's perspective. Didn't mean to imply that Envoy pilots weren't quality pilots. It's just that if I were running an airline, I'd want to interview my own guys/gals and not be dependent upon some other entity's judgement. For example, if a pilot shortage really does materialize someday, maybe Envoy (or any regional with flow for that matter) starts digging deep into the gene pool just to fill seats. One would think American (or United, Delta, whoever) would want to screen their own guys/gals to protect against a scenario like that for example. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782396)
Tell me what's false???
The first 90 e-175 options that AA place in order with the 60 orders in December 2013 come to envoy. If they want to activate PSA options, RAH options, SKywest Options they can do it and those airplanes won't come here. What's false in my statement? |
Originally Posted by Alex14
(Post 1782214)
If this TA does pass, what would the potential junior bases be going forward? Would any new bases get introduced with the addition of the E-175s or would they likely be added to the existing ORD, DFW and New York bases?
Good Luck. |
Originally Posted by PDTpilotXX
(Post 1782401)
Read the PDT ratified agreement. 20 options are for PDT. This is different from the contingencies for the PDT "firm" orders. Sounds like a legal fight might be brewing.
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Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 1782466)
I asked this question and the options referenced in PDT's contract are separate on paper. They were purchased at a different time than the firm orders and options referenced in the Envoy TA. In short, all options do not come from the same pool.
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Originally Posted by boiler07
(Post 1782466)
I asked this question and the options referenced in PDT's contract are separate on paper. They were purchased at a different time than the firm orders and options referenced in the Envoy TA. In short, all options do not come from the same pool.
Someone read the PDT Contract. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782476)
This...
Someone read the PDT Contract. |
Originally Posted by PDTpilotXX
(Post 1782478)
Dude, not trying to start an argument but that isn't correct. They are from the same "pool" of options. Not only that apparently they are the FIRST batch of options
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please post the contract section defining that.
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Originally Posted by buddies8
(Post 1782861)
please post the contract section defining that.
NOW THEREFORE it is agreed that: 1. Piedmont Airlines Minimum Fleet Commitment and CBA "Snap Back" a. Piedmont will maintain a minimum of twenty (20) airframes in revenue service to be operated by pilots on the Piedmont Pilot Seniority List (“Piedmont pilots’) in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Piedmont/ALPA CBA”). b. If the number of airframes in revenue service at Piedmont falls below twenty (20), the Association will have the right by written notice to Piedmont to require Piedmont to put back in place the terms and conditions of the 2013 Piedmont/ALPA CBA (the “snap back”) prior to amendments found in the Jet Aircraft Letter of Agreement. The snap back terms and conditions will be effective on the first day of the month following the one in which the Association gives such notice. c. The terms and conditions of the Career Opportunities Letter of Agreement will remain in full force and effect whether or not the Association elects to snap back to the 2013 CBA terms and conditions. 2. The Placement of EMB-175 Aircraft at Piedmont Airlines a. Subject to the labor contingency found in paragraph 2.c., below, a minimum of twenty (20) EMB-175 aircraft will be placed into revenue service at Piedmont Airlines to be operated by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. PIEDMONT AIRLINES PILOT AGREEMENT Letter of Agreement 19 – Jet Aircraft: Appendix D – Aircraft Commitments b. Twenty (20) additional EMB-175 options, if exercised or turned into firm orders of new EMB- 175s from the manufacturer, will also be placed at PIedmont to be flown by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. In the event the twenty (20) EMB- 175 options are not exercised, and instead a new order is placed with Embraer, the first twenty (20) the EMB-175 aircraft of the new order placed with Embraer by American Airlines Group (AAG) will be placed at Piedmont and flown by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. c. The commitments in this paragraph 2 are predicated on meaningful participation in Jet Aircraft Negotiations by other labor groups at Piedmont. The commitment for EMB-175 aircraft herein is contingent upon reaching acceptable agreements with the AFA-represented Flight Attendants and the IBT-represented Mechanics and related employee groups. |
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782944)
WHEREAS the Parties wish to ensure that Piedmont Airlines continues to operate.
NOW THEREFORE it is agreed that: 1. Piedmont Airlines Minimum Fleet Commitment and CBA "Snap Back" a. Piedmont will maintain a minimum of twenty (20) airframes in revenue service to be operated by pilots on the Piedmont Pilot Seniority List (“Piedmont pilots’) in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Piedmont/ALPA CBA”). b. If the number of airframes in revenue service at Piedmont falls below twenty (20), the Association will have the right by written notice to Piedmont to require Piedmont to put back in place the terms and conditions of the 2013 Piedmont/ALPA CBA (the “snap back”) prior to amendments found in the Jet Aircraft Letter of Agreement. The snap back terms and conditions will be effective on the first day of the month following the one in which the Association gives such notice. c. The terms and conditions of the Career Opportunities Letter of Agreement will remain in full force and effect whether or not the Association elects to snap back to the 2013 CBA terms and conditions. 2. The Placement of EMB-175 Aircraft at Piedmont Airlines a. Subject to the labor contingency found in paragraph 2.c., below, a minimum of twenty (20) EMB-175 aircraft will be placed into revenue service at Piedmont Airlines to be operated by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. PIEDMONT AIRLINES PILOT AGREEMENT Letter of Agreement 19 – Jet Aircraft: Appendix D – Aircraft Commitments b. Twenty (20) additional EMB-175 options, if exercised or turned into firm orders of new EMB- 175s from the manufacturer, will also be placed at PIedmont to be flown by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. In the event the twenty (20) EMB- 175 options are not exercised, and instead a new order is placed with Embraer, the first twenty (20) the EMB-175 aircraft of the new order placed with Embraer by American Airlines Group (AAG) will be placed at Piedmont and flown by Piedmont pilots in accordance with the terms of the Piedmont/ALPA CBA. c. The commitments in this paragraph 2 are predicated on meaningful participation in Jet Aircraft Negotiations by other labor groups at Piedmont. The commitment for EMB-175 aircraft herein is contingent upon reaching acceptable agreements with the AFA-represented Flight Attendants and the IBT-represented Mechanics and related employee groups. Read it again. They must enter MEANINGFUL Negotiations with IBT and AFA. Also re read paragraph 2 a b and c. The options are the issue. |
See, no options to PDT unless agreement are reach with FA and Mx. Are PDT FAs and MX in negotiations?
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3
(Post 1782948)
See, no options to PDT unless agreement are reach with FA and Mx. Are PDT FAs and MX in negotiations?
There is CLEARLY obligation for those talks on AMR's part. THEY ARE DEALING THE PLANES TO BOTH OF US. Like I said before, I'm not trying to start a fight, just pointing out this issue and rumor has it talks are underway high within ALPA, PDT ALPA and other parties re this issue. |
Originally Posted by PDTpilotXX
(Post 1782950)
THEY ARE DEALING THE PLANES TO BOTH OF US.
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