Easy then vote NO and watch your friends/ Alpa brothers upgrading flying your planes. They stand behind you....

Good Luck.

It would seem so. :cool:

It seems like there are plenty of "it's good for me" RJ pilots presently at Envoy. Not sure if that will be the majority though.

Flow is not how you put it


Current TA

PBS is more like you said

Bottom line, we definitely have had better deals in the past. It's the pilots and the unions fault for not voting yes on those in the past, but now we will vote yes on this to save our ass. I don't think the union and the no voters thought anyone else could staff the flying. Looks like they could.

its really easy to vote NO on this crap deal 10 year deal is way too long the regional landscape will change too much in the next few years. Its not about voting about right now, but for those guys here 18 months plus they have to think about what kind of contract the want to live under if the music stops. Single operating Certificate and PBS at mainline could slow down the hiring next year AAG wants Enovy to be an all E175 operator, contract at compass is not long term so those planes will be back up for grabs. If you voted no before, you have to stick with it or you shoudl have voted yes a long time ago. No point in voting yes now. if the shutdown threat is real, make them put it in writing!!!! AAG keeps coming back, why, we are a depreciating asset for them. If they don't keep us as a viable airline then the stockholders start to wonder why upper managment is making decisions lowering AAG's value

Ultimately they're going to whack the senior RJ pilots pay down to 12 year scale. No way Parker is going to cuddle hundreds of pilots at 18 year scale when he doesn't have to. He'd just be leaving money on the table he doesn't have to and Parker doesn't do that. The other shoe will drop in a year or two and he'll have quite a group of cheapies flying those RJ's. Sad to see.......Eagle used to be a career, but soon it will be a true "journeyman" job.

My condolences to most Envoy pilots at least those forced to stay.

It wasn't about staffing the flying elsewhere, or at least it shouldn't have been. It was the fact that the company took all the gains and left us holding the bag if anything went wrong. That was the problem with the last TA we voted on. Anybody who voted no solely because they thought nobody would take the flying was not very bright.

Personally, I think its best to continue to vote no and let them shut the place down. Then at least you know where you stand. If you are an FO at any seniority level, bail now and get your 1 year upgrade anywhere else. If you are a Captain, ride it out till the shutdown, hopefully you will have been picked up by a mainline carrier by then.

There is zero incentive to voting yes other then keeping the airline afloat for some undetermined amount of time. It's going to close down one way or the other.

Voting yes doesn't do a thing for you, it doesn't add any airplanes, it only replaces what you already have. And that's not even until 2016 which might as well be 20 years from now.

Voting yes puts you in the same boat as Endeavor, meaning nobody wants to work there. You have to be able to attract FO's which this does not do. Everyone already knows the E2D didn't work.

Take or staff the flying. Alpa lied to you guys.


Good Luck.

Why not vote yes and take the money with you if the results are going to be the same. Oh wait, keep standing for whats right.....LOL


Good Luck.

Yea, and when we turn this down and another 20 175s are gone, IF the company even wants to talk about the remainder 20, we will have THAT much less offered next time as we did last time. This is the best deal we can get under these circumstances, at this time.

Then if voted down, things will continue to get uglier here, just as they have for the last couple years, only it may end altogether now. Even those hard core "NO" votes in the MEC and LECs see it, and believe it. There were no obtentions this time. THIS IS IT BABY!

RJ is right! We will need all the luck we can get even if this passes, and things will be much worse if it doesn't.

Arrogance is a personal fault, and we should recognize it before it is our demise. We are right to vote "NO", but we can't win this fight.

One choice will feed my family, and one will not. One choice will not harm my career progression, and one will...
Choose wisely.

Unemployed. Mortgage in default. Wife leaving you, with kids and 1/2 you got. And too old to be hired anywhere else. ...I don't think so.

Clearly you are a junior, single FO with nothing to lose. Right now that is an enviable position, but that definitely does not apply to the upper half of the seniority list who has something to lose.

The regional airline industry is in for a real shakeup, and there will be survivors and there will be the "comair's".

Career wise for everyone on the seniority list it would be best to be in the 'survivor' category. Unless you are super junior and go to TransStates as a CA qualified FO flying the same aircraft you did today, possibly forever,only now it is undercutting your comrades back at Envoy..,, or super senior about to flow and don't have a problem throwing the lit match in the gasoline and thrill at the pain of everyone left behind as it burns down. The rest of us are just screwed...

I bet he is one of those wonder FO's that will vote NO and split to Compass.

Good Luck.

Too funny. A senior Envoy pilot yelling at another he first lists a litany of aspects NOT applicable to a "single, junior FO" and then calling him exactly that. On top of that, a fellow senior captain known for throwing others under the bus pats him on the head for it.

Looney tunes has arrived at Envoy. :cool:

Then again, perhaps I read it backwards and the poster is telling us all why he's on his knees and plans to stay there.

Please. Stand up for yourself. Everyone knew exactly what they were doing and the consequences the first and second time it was voted down. Hop on over to TSA and be a Captain, you can be in class next week.

I just don't get how Envoy can vote it down twice and then all of the sudden beg for scraps with your tail between your legs. The management is probably smoking cigars and drinking brandy right now talking about how they b*tch slapped you around. You guys fold now and you can forget ever being taken seriously at the Majors. They know you will put up with ANYTHING just to fly a sh*tty old 145 around. The employees at McDonalds and Walmart making all that noise and getting on the news have more drive and determination.

EDIT: For all the PSA and PDT smack that's been layed down, think about your all your friends over at Republic, you basically are handing them a sh*t sandwich.

Oh please. Forget about taken seriously at the Majors? PSA pilots ARE getting HIRED at Majors, yes AA.

Good Luck.

Because that's how it works in this industry. mainline gets beat down and give up concessions and scope regionals prosper. Now it's time for the regional smack down. Problem is, they've screwed up this industry so bad with their corporate greed that there's not enough new blood coming in to keep the cycle going. Time for a build up again, but I still feel it's a ways off

Republic grew by being a bottom feeder. They took MANY jobs from the good regionals. The expensive regionals with great/good contracts like AWAC, XJET, LegacyEagle, Horizon and yes, even Piedmont have been directly hurt by pilots going to work for airlines like RAH and the like.

RAH handed you a **** sand which long ago.

Yes the did, Skywest did too. They're like Walmart or Best Buy with their economies of scale. Skywest told Delta they'd match the second lowest in a timed rate reset. So what does Delta do? They beat down Endeavor Air and now they have Endeavor and GoJet to use against Skywest. That's the way it is in the contract sector. But now Delta's costs are cheaper, so now American decides to file bankruptcy (even though they have billions in the bank) just so they can trim expenses and stay competitive with Delta. Bankruptcy is often the only way to renetgotiate long term leases and union contracts. The archaic Railways Labor Act takes any leverage away from the employees.

not long term? It's 6 years with a 4 year option.....

Please. The ones getting 'thrown under the bus' are those senior who makes no sense to leave for whatever reason. You ARE throwing THEM under the bus!

Are you insane? After more than 25 hard earned years here I am making 120K here and you say I should go to TSA to be a 40K CA-Q-FO? And NEVER see another kids birthday off or holiday? YOU need a drug test.
The first and second time it was voted down our MEC gave us BAD INFORMATION, regarding a lot of things, mostly regarding the leverage we had. I for one, was not EVER going to throw away my job, IDIOT!


Like all those who left ENY to go to Trans States to be a Ca-Q-FO? LOL!!!! My heart bleeds for them!!!! LOL (S)

25 years there? you are the insane one!!!!

Maybe, but if true, is that really any of your damn business, and do you really want to **** me off?

Why would I come in here and "run my mouth" when it obviously falls on deaf ears. In case you haven't noticed it's the holiday season and I have a wife and two kids who I'd rather be enjoying time with than trying to educate the clueless or lament the sad state of AAG's feeders. Thanks for the shout out, though.

PDT, PSA, and ALPA put us in this situation, period. I stand by my previous convictions and will vote accordingly. Don't be surprised, though, if many at Envoy vote to theoretically save their jobs since it's clear you won't stand with us. Enjoy those "shiny" 145s :rolleyes:

Merry Christmas, I think you're sh*****'s full!

Kinda reads like you're running your mouth now. Maybe you should place your blame with the EGL individuals (********, etc) that first pitched this idea to *** and got it stuck in his head that this was ok. After all, you have no problem blaming others for your houses problem.

Hey man. Like your Avatar:D

LOL, we'll during the Piedmont TA you sure spent less time with your Wife and 2 kids.

Oh so now it's our fault all the sudden you are voting yes. And no we don't want your 145's. Never have and never will.

State of the regionals: just give up when Parker and his ilk come knocking. Why waste time? Save your careers! When billionaires plead poverty, just roll over.

Did I get it right?

Yeah maybe we should have a serious talk about who is really insane. Envoy is going out one way or the other so you better start getting your logbook added up and fresh resumes out. American doesn't want you on the payscale, they want you flowed out of there. They've just begun to dismantle you. You as a 25 year Captain cannot fly one flight without an FO sitting next to you and those are going to be harder and harder to find.

Bad information you say? Your MEC is you, just a bunch of pilots. You've been there 25 years, where was your experience when it was needed most?

Your heart may bleed but maybe you should examine your role in all this.

you most certainly did get it right.

This TA won't pass. AAG won't be able to replace all the codeshare flying (w/jetblue etc) which has to be given up as part of the merger deal and on top of that find someone to fly their 100+ E-jets.

If they really wanted this TA to pass they would offer:
~ 30k bonus like Endeavor
~ 150 minimum fleet guarantee

AAG will have to spend millions to replace us and it's going to cost them. We will all have jobs and go work for AAG's biggest competitors. AAG might have money, but not enough pilots. If they were smart they would offer us 30k and 150 minimum fleet and start to work on that trust relationship between pilots and management. That's what will make them succeed.

Unless a better offer this TA will fail. ~ Vote no.

I rather shrink with new airplanes coming here than without them.

It will pass, we will see the 23rd. The most important thing is to go out and vote.

If you find yourself in a hole... Stop digging.

PSA/PDT have been dealing with Parker for 10 years. We know what to expect. The illusion of control is your shortcoming. This is trickle down effect at its finest. Take what you can and move on.

Envoy never had any power in these negotiations. If PSA and PDT had voted no, they would have been shut down and their airplanes given to MESA. It would have been the warning to Envoy.

AAG is going to get what they want. If you had been smart and taken the first deal, things would have been much better for you.

This new contract truly brings the industry to a new low with a new B-scale contract. You should be ashamed if you think that what Envoy has done so far has been noble or helped the industry in any way. It has hurt it more, and is in a far worse state than when you started.

I'll bet something similar was said back in the late 1700's :rolleyes:

Big business has evolved and learned how to deal with labor. They have lawyers and professional negotiators. Labor, on the other hand, is moving in the wrong direction.

ALPA could help in all of this, but they don't. They take a back seat and let the little MEC's work it out for themselves. The Union guys at the majors do not care what is going on at the regionals. Heck, most of the Captains at majors have no idea who Envoy is.

What if all of the AA and US guys slow-taxied (or called "nil" breaking with even the slightest amount of snow to cause major delays) until Envoy had a good contract? What would have happened then? That is power. These are the things that used to happen.

A MEC whining about their contract is not power. It does nothing to motivate them to pay you more. Until you can give them a reason to pay you more, they won't.

Sure they have power. They can shut the airline down if they choose. If that's not power, I'm not sure what is? It seems to me that if PDT and PSA had voted no and the respective airlines had been shut down, regional airline management would be a little more hesitant to try to stuff concessionary contracts down the remaining regional airline pilots' throats in this environment. I kind of said it tongue-in-cheek before, but they would have been running out of airlines to shut down. These management teams can only slash and burn so much.

If they had voted in either of the other two contracts, it appears to me it would have been concessionary anyway, right? I mean, Envoy management isn't asking them to vote on a contract that is better for the industry, are they? What does it matter if they took a crap contract before or a crap contract now?

The Envoy pilots have nothing to be ashamed of. Just curious, are you related to management in any way CLT Guy?

If management wanted to shut the airline down, do they need the union's vote to do so? Nope. If management wanted Eagle shut down they would've already been shut down.

Management is playing everyone like a fiddle.

Absolutely not. I am just a pilot that makes his paycheck like everyone else. I am, however, not blinded by unrealistic expectations.

Here are the questions that everyone should be asking: Is Envoy better off with this contract than they would have been with the first one? Are the regional airlines as a whole better for all of this? Are the relations between the pilots of the different airlines worse now? Is there any sort of solidarity at all now? Who was the winner in all of this?

All this has done is to tear the groups apart even more. You have to recognize this. With the Envoy pilots attacking the other regional pilots, why would they stand together? All this is doing is creating barriers that will hurt the collective labor as a whole. The B scale contract will create further animosity inside of Envoy. One guy will have one set of flow rules and pay scales (past the 12/4), while the guy sitting next to him will have something completely different. All that is happening is that we are being separated. The large "American Eagle" is gone, and several smaller pawns have been left in it's place. This is great for management, as pawns can be sacrificed to control the others - especially when the pawns all hate each other.

It is not the pilots at Envoys fault that this happened, but they did make it worse...and are continuing to make it worse every day. They attack other pilots for doing the exact thing that they are doing now - getting the best deal that they could and keeping their families fed.

Every negative comment from one pilot towards another is another win for airline management.

Envoy did have power! But Parker took it away. PSA tried to show some balls by declining not to take 900's when Parker first offered them. He wanted PSA to fly them at a blended rate. PSA people called his bluff and said go to hell. Parker simply called Ornstien and said can you fly 900's for xxx.xx. Sure I can he told Parker. Parker sends the 900's to Mesa and the PSA Pilots thinking they'd taken a stand are there with mouths open wondering how he could've done that to us.
Fast forward and now PSA is offered the same deal. A deal that has a threat of maybe more to Mesa or even worse to the red headed step kid of Piedmont Airlines. This time they don't call the bluff and take the deal. Envoy with it leverage votes "no" and Parker now starts to shrink Envoy. Enter the other wholly owned. The Red Headed Step Kid "Piedmont Airlines and it's the dying row boat floating all alone ready to grab any scraps just to be around for 10 more years. We would've jumped on PSA's deal to to live another day that's how bad we saw our future. You can't shrink us, don't even have to shut us down. That was already happening. Parker coming to us was like an angel with a defibrillator. So we we're a sure yes vote. No doubt! Senior Dying Airline with a 25 year old fleet and a company that couldn't keep or get people too. We were the perfect pawn in the chess game against Envoy.
Now Envoy having been shrunk looks like Piedmont did last year. No future, old fleet and a senior pilot group. They got us by the balls. I blame ALPA for much of this. They let these games be played out without ever jumping in to make sure every Airline made them equal in pay and workrules or even better.
I watched ALPA play ALG/PSA/PDT like a fiddle and it continues today. Look at what's going on now. ALPA and AAG negotiating two separate deals for the exact same airplanes?" Really????
It's a big club! And the regional Pilots aren't in it. Envoy vote how you must. Even if you vote NO it won't matter. You'll shrink and be merged and forgotten. Vote yes and you'll still shrink but have nice shiny E-175's to fly until you flow. Choice is yours and nobody else's.