Bigpimppilot

Where is that CJ guy?

ag386

Where are you CR700? We would love to hear your spin on the latest. The union now says that 38 new hires per month plus 24 upgrades per month MUST happen in order for the Ponzi scheme flow to work. Are you going to meet these goals?

adspilot

Why do you keep calling it a Ponzi scheme? Tell me how Envoy's hiring process is any different than any other pilot group? Stop being hypocritical.

ju10489

Sounds about right..

ag386

The hiring process and flow are two separate items. Envoy's hiring is no different from any other regional aside from what they offer to try and attract pilots.

The separate flow item is the Ponzi scheme. Your own union stated within the last couple of days that Envoy must hire 38 per month, EACH and EVERY month going forward in order for the flow to work as advertised. That's not a number I came up with. It's from your union.

Please tell me that if you are outside of the 824, you are not banking on this flow to get you to AA. You should consider other options unless you are just happy with your Envoy career.

PilotJ3

38 a month for the 2.5 upgrade. Not for the flow. More missinformation...

eaglefly

I think you are confused with a Pyramid Scheme.

Wiki describes a Pyramid Scheme as : "A business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, other than supplying investments or sale of products and services. As recruiting multiplies, recruiting becomes quickly impossible and most members are unable to profit. As such, pyramid schemes are unsustainable and often illegal.".

They also include the statement, "Pyramid schemes have existed for at least a century under different guises....."

I think there are some differences here with the pure Pyramid scheme, but there are some glaring similarities as well. The Ponzi angle doesn't seem to have as many similarities as the Pyramid scheme to not just the situation at Envoy, but the regional industry. Now, none of this is illegal here, but to me at least what is most disturbing in the case of Envoy is not Envoy management or AAG that has fostered this similarity, but many of the members (Envoy pilots) themselves. AAG/Envoy is simply using tried and true sales pitches to lure in a necessary resource for them to prosper and remain a viable business and arguably embellished and assumptive promises are nothing new. Been going on for decades, so the Pyramid similarity is not really theirs, but born of the desperation of many Envoy pilots and even by their ALPA MEC with past support of questionable claims and even pitching poaching schemes. Nothing really new there either as past MEC's have been also willing to do whatever is in their best interests to move themselves higher up the Pyramid. Isn't the MEC chair close to flowing ? I read comments from others he fawned all over upper management in a past road show about how they saw the pilots as people, yet recent blasts to the pilots describe actually the opposite understandably leaving many Envoy pilots with credibility and objectivity questions about their present union leadership, yet again.

It's no wonder many Envoy pilots are in a state of near panic considering how alone they feel with what they believe to be an impotent union allowing them to be steamrolled at will and with possibly yet again, an upper leadership that is in question on several levels. Anyway, IMO what IS new, is the eager participation by many Envoy pilots on these threads assisting that endeavor (no pun intended) by validating the embellished and assumptive promises as they themselves believe they need progressively lower layers of a pyramid under them to ensure they are not the ones in jeopardy of losing the payoff (the flow to AA) that better exists at the upper tiers of the triangle as opposed to less at the lower levels. Thus they are.......or at least were, either defending the claims of what they believed would attract the lower layers to Envoy (2.5/6) or in the very least attempting to run off (silence) those who found it questionable and were critical of it. This type of approach has not been identified at either of the other AAG WO's on these boards, at least from my observation. I think it obvious things have gotten much quieter here because many now see the futility of selling something now obviously unsellable as even they can't convince themselves to believe it (and it's just as obviously ineffective).

I see many Envoy pilots outside the 824 as being under a great deal of stress because of their precarious flow situation which requires a steady supply of lower layers of the Pyramid they believe necessary to ensure their unimpeded movement to AA, which is understandable, but I think a major reason for that stress is many have deluded themselves with unrealistic expectations of the future being different from the past, which the present is now undeniably showing to be a mistake. I guess many are simply desperate to get out of Envoy and so are willing to rationalize any approach to maximizing their escape.

IMO, the flow will most likely continue, but outside and internal AAG issues will likely mean a slower path to the top of the Pyramid for most in the future. In reading EL, it seems the bad news from the union about how the company treats and sees their pilots is coming out almost daily now and I think that only threatens an already shaky Pyramid there as considering that and the forces Envoy is desperately trying to alter to maintain their present feed footprint only make a healthy Pyramid less likely going forward. Just my .02 anyway, as usual.

BTW, congrats on the upgrade as that should open up new considerations outside the flow to AA.

eaglefly

Without 38/month, Envoy shrinks as attrition outpaces attraction. As Envoy shrinks, it not only needs less captains in a balanced staffing operation which slows the upgrade, it cannot cover present feed allocation at any given periodic point and so either Envoy shrinks and flows itself to an increasingly smaller and less capable carrier ensuring its own ultimate demise or attrition is minimized by altering the flow, which means the flow slows (or in certain situations, stops).

Do you believe Envoy will flow itself out of existence simply for altruistic loyalty to the pilots there ?

In the past, they claimed they would park aircraft to honor the flow, but all recent actions seem to bely just the opposite. They withheld a measly 5 pilots in March simply because they could. 300% OT (which really isn't 300% according to some), rumbles of potential canceled Summer vacations from the union and reports of withholding of E-175 F/O upgrades all are MAJOR red flags and EXACTLY the type of things you and others have been warned about for months (if not, years) here, but in baffling fashion, STILL can't seem to accept.

Good luck, but I think you need a major realignment with identification of reality. How many times must dog be beaten to understand its owner really has no concern for its well being ?

For some it seems, forever.

At any rate, perhaps you could explain how Envoy can or will maintain the flow as they shrink ? I'm certainly willing to grasp that if someone can convince me of it.

daOldMan

I don't have all of the numbers in front of me, so if my percentages are wrong, feel free to correct me with documented numbers...

Right now, the flow is at 50% of new hire classes, but this will decrease to 35% of new hire classes once the 824 are gone. It will go up again once the last E175 gets delivered.

The problem is that if Envoy can't hire, they will not be able to staff the new E175s coming in. All it takes is for one less 175 to be delivered, and the flow will remain substantially lower than it is right now.

15% difference is immense. This could add years to a pilots flow.

shfo

Absolutely incorrect. Although this is what the contract says, management will laugh at you as you file a grievance, go to arbitration and lose. It happened in 2013 to around 40 of us. The company argued they had to withhold do to circumstances beyond their control.