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Envoy Airlines Regional Airline

New Envoy Information

Old 05-19-2016, 07:44 AM
  #2871  
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Most guys outside the 824 aren't worried about management's problems. New hires will come if management makes Envoy attractive. That's their concern, not ours.

The flow is not currently attracting people, apparently offering the 175 is. The flow is most likely helping with retention of current pilots. Mess with the flow and the exodus will be massive and aircraft will be parked.

So, the way I see it, unless Envoy is made more attractive, aircraft will be parked. Keep flowing, with no contractual improvements or new hires, we shrink. Shut off the flow, mass exodus of current pilots, we shrink.

The obvious solution is to make Envoy a better place to work. Pilot leverage is increased with every month we send pilots to AA and hire no one to replace them.

Will management pull the right strings to keep their business model alive and breathing? I think so, but if they don't, I'm not worried. Everyone is hiring and LCC's are dropping their minimums. Right now, an Envoy pilot can be choosy and wait for United, Delta, or their top choice, while keeping the flow in their back pocket. If something changes, they they'll have to reassess.



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Old 05-19-2016, 07:50 AM
  #2872  
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On another note, after reading the email from the negotiating committee, I don't think I want to use this iPad anymore.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:18 AM
  #2873  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
38 a month for the 2.5 upgrade. Not for the flow. More missinformation...
Do you seriously believe that without new hires you would have either quick upgrades or flow? The company has X number of airframes they want Envoy to fly. After the continuous contract violations there along with the horrific treatment, you believe the company will park airplanes so that the flow continues unabated?
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:28 AM
  #2874  
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Default New Envoy Information

Product going in, product going out.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:02 AM
  #2875  
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Originally Posted by daOldMan View Post
I don't have all of the numbers in front of me, so if my percentages are wrong, feel free to correct me with documented numbers...

Right now, the flow is at 50% of new hire classes, but this will decrease to 35% of new hire classes once the 824 are gone. It will go up again once the last E175 gets delivered.

The problem is that if Envoy can't hire, they will not be able to staff the new E175s coming in. All it takes is for one less 175 to be delivered, and the flow will remain substantially lower than it is right now.

15% difference is immense. This could add years to a pilots flow.
They won't be able to staff the 175's or the rusty old 145's? AAG has proven they have no problem playing musical planes with our 145's so if this situation were to ever present itself, I would count on the 145's being on the chopping block before any 175 delivery is delayed.

Ask the majority of pilots at envoy if we're worried about the flow coming to a screeching halt and the answer might surprise you. There's a reason why many are hanging around for the flow. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:12 AM
  #2876  
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Most guys outside the 824 aren't worried about management's problems. New hires will come if management makes Envoy attractive. That's their concern, not ours.

The flow is not currently attracting people, apparently offering the 175 is. The flow is most likely helping with retention of current pilots. Mess with the flow and the exodus will be massive and aircraft will be parked.

So, the way I see it, unless Envoy is made more attractive, aircraft will be parked. Keep flowing, with no contractual improvements or new hires, we shrink. Shut off the flow, mass exodus of current pilots, we shrink.

The obvious solution is to make Envoy a better place to work. Pilot leverage is increased with every month we send pilots to AA and hire no one to replace them.

Will management pull the right strings to keep their business model alive and breathing? I think so, but if they don't, I'm not worried. Everyone is hiring and LCC's are dropping their minimums. Right now, an Envoy pilot can be choosy and wait for United, Delta, or their top choice, while keeping the flow in their back pocket. If something changes, they they'll have to reassess.
Disagree about a "mass exodus" from present Envoy pilots should they "mess with" the flow. Cujo already proved to Envoy management with his EL poll that showed the overwhelming majority of Envoy pilots won't quit if the flow is altered. The more longevity they have, the less able they are willing to start over. Most WILL leave for a legacy or LLC, but would anyway, so no change there.

I think that's one reason they seem unconcerned with the pilots already there and why so many there with more then a few years in are so panicky and distressed; Both sides know the reality and one is capitalizing on it while the other feels powerless.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:16 AM
  #2877  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
Do you seriously believe that without new hires you would have either quick upgrades or flow? The company has X number of airframes they want Envoy to fly. After the continuous contract violations there along with the horrific treatment, you believe the company will park airplanes so that the flow continues unabated?
If they shut off the flow because they are worried about the attrition, plenty of people will just accept the first job offer from an LCC, DAL or UAL. Attrition will continue whether mgmt wants it to or not. Only question is, will it be the expensive senior CAs through the flow or the cheaper junior people leaving when they get hired at another carrier than AA? Unless the retirement age is changed again or we have another 9/11 or economic meltdown, the beat goes on. The Regional Airline model is dying. It's just a matter of time before the MFICs finally get it. They're like the Mayor in Jaws.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:46 AM
  #2878  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
The hiring process and flow are two separate items. Envoy's hiring is no different from any other regional aside from what they offer to try and attract pilots.

The separate flow item is the Ponzi scheme. Your own union stated within the last couple of days that Envoy must hire 38 per month, EACH and EVERY month going forward in order for the flow to work as advertised. That's not a number I came up with. It's from your union.

Please tell me that if you are outside of the 824, you are not banking on this flow to get you to AA. You should consider other options unless you are just happy with your Envoy career.
Well, first off the union did not say we need 38 per month for the flow to work as advertised. There you go making stuff up again.

Secondly, can you make up your mind? Is hiring and flow related or unrelated? You can't have it both ways.

Finally, no one here is banking on the 824. Do you think anyone here would pass up UAL, DAL, JB, Alaska, or SW? We are loosing about 9 FOs per month.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:48 AM
  #2879  
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Good points here.

Pilots want the shiny jet. Logic or reasoning aside, the actions of the new hires that choose not to continue training at Envoy are obvious. Compounding the issue with lack of slots for the desired aircraft are all the issues we deal with every day, lower first year pay, and only two bases to choose from.

The lack of upgrades is another issue. No upward movement is a big deal, nobody wants to sit on reserve forever, everybody wants the PIC time and better pay. Recruits see the stagnation here and don't apply to work here making the problem worse.

The flow could honestly be very attractive, but its function depends on hiring and upward movement. Management continues to advertise the flow and upgrade time as a selling point for pilots to work here, yet have done everything they could possibly do wrong to make their promises reality.

Yes, if the flow stops people will absolutely leave. The first decent job that calls, they'll quit. It doesn't even have to be an LCC. Just as previously, they'll leave to fly a corporate gig close to home. Become an airfield manager. Instruct in a sim. Chief pilot at a school. I've flown with many that did just this. They've had it with the lousy schedules, low time lines, inability to commute and the overall abuse. They'll quit alright.

Everything hinges on hiring. Management needs to get their collective ****** together, get some additional bases and get training running like gangbusters to make room in the shiny jet pipeline if they expect people to come work here.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:01 AM
  #2880  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
38 a month for the 2.5 upgrade. Not for the flow. More missinformation...
See, what a pilot needs to do is come to envoy during one of the worse periods of stagnation and contraction in Eagle's History, then after riding out the worse part, then jump ship to a company like Allegiant, where you are still basically a regional pilot but you get to fly bigger, albeit much crappier aircraft, but... and here is the exciting part... you then spend all your time on an internet forum talking about your old company that you don't work for anymore. That there, sir, is the key to success and inner fulfilment!
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