Originally Posted by FlameNSky

See, what a pilot needs to do is come to envoy during one of the worse periods of stagnation and contraction in Eagle's History, then after riding out the worse part, then jump ship to a company like Allegiant, where you are still basically a regional pilot but you get to fly bigger, albeit much crappier aircraft, but... and here is the exciting part... you then spend all your time on an internet forum talking about your old company that you don't work for anymore. That there, sir, is the key to success and inner fulfilment!

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox

Good points here.

Pilots want the shiny jet. Logic or reasoning aside, the actions of the new hires that choose not to continue training at Envoy are obvious. Compounding the issue with lack of slots for the desired aircraft are all the issues we deal with every day, lower first year pay, and only two bases to choose from.

The lack of upgrades is another issue. No upward movement is a big deal, nobody wants to sit on reserve forever, everybody wants the PIC time and better pay. Recruits see the stagnation here and don't apply to work here making the problem worse.

The flow could honestly be very attractive, but its function depends on hiring and upward movement. Management continues to advertise the flow and upgrade time as a selling point for pilots to work here, yet have done everything they could possibly do wrong to make their promises reality.

Yes, if the flow stops people will absolutely leave. The first decent job that calls, they'll quit. It doesn't even have to be an LCC. Just as previously, they'll leave to fly a corporate gig close to home. Become an airfield manager. Instruct in a sim. Chief pilot at a school. I've flown with many that did just this. They've had it with the lousy schedules, low time lines, inability to commute and the overall abuse. They'll quit alright.

Everything hinges on hiring. Management needs to get their collective ****** together, get some additional bases and get training running like gangbusters to make room in the shiny jet pipeline if they expect people to come work here.

Originally Posted by adspilot

Well, first off the union did not say we need 38 per month for the flow to work as advertised. There you go making stuff up again.

Secondly, can you make up your mind? Is hiring and flow related or unrelated? You can't have it both ways.

Finally, no one here is banking on the 824. Do you think anyone here would pass up UAL, DAL, JB, Alaska, or SW? We are loosing about 9 FOs per month.

Originally Posted by highflyer1980

Agreed. Flow ever ceases, I'm bolting for the door. Not staying for 20 years.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

What if it trickles just enough to keep you there, but not get you to AA to fast ? Sure, ALL would go to another legacy and most would go to an LCC, but most aren't geared for corporate, haven't planned on leaving the industry and virtually NONE would make a lateral move to the bottom of another regionals list in this environment.

People might threaten to leave, but when their guard was down and they were more honest (when strategically they shouldn't have been) in what seemed like an innocent EL poll, IIRC about 70% said they are committed to Envoy come what may. Few present captains can duplicate their income outside an RJ captains job and many of the F/O's are in too deep to move anywhere but up to legacy or LCC.

I think Envoy knows they've got most pilots by the short-hairs and aren't worried too much with non-expected attrition, especially if the flow DOESN'T stop, but just slows to a more modest 20/month or in a consolidation scenario, the equivalent of that for present Envoy PP's.

Originally Posted by Bassman1985

Fair enough, but none of that stops or even slows the retirements coming of the top of AA. When push comes to shove and they can't find enough qualified pilots, which do you think AAG is more likely to park? An A-319 that requires fewer block hours to move a certain number of people per day, or an E-145 that requires more? My money is on the tiny, gas-guzzling, hated-by-pax 50-seater. Up-gauging is the business model of the future for domestic operations. Eventually you can't up-gauge any more and you are forced to bring your outsourced flying back in-house. Just a matter of time in our current environment.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky

It was 65 degrees today in New York, that's not gonna be good for the flowthrough.

Originally Posted by FlameNSky

It was 65 degrees today in New York

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Well, by the looks of Envoy's last new hire class, just about anything isn't good for the flow. It doesn't matter WHY they don't come to Envoy, only that they don't......and that's NOT good for you because without the new bottom tiers being constructed in the pyramid below you, those now at or near the bottom STAY on the bottom. Considering Envoy only has a relatively small amount of E-175's and the CRJ's and EMB's are worthless to the few newbie's out there, what's the plan ?

Looks to be a VERY cold New York winter there, I'm sorry to say. Sounds like more and more over on EL are starting to finally get it.