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Old 05-22-2016, 10:19 AM
  #2961  
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Originally Posted by E175 Driver View Post
Im not liking this. Lots to think about the future of envoy.
Personally, I don't think a BK is the most likely path. Once staffing gets critical there, all it will take is a sit down and any number of more unpleasant scenarios could be laid out for Envoy ALPA then agreement to meter the flow to lower levels as part of a stand alone plan or consolidation with another carrier. In Envoy's defense, they will really have no choice the next time unless they can pull a genie out of the bottle to invent a steady throng of 35-40 new-hires in perpetuity.

Caveat Emptor.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:34 PM
  #2962  
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Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
You're dreaming my friend. ANY, and I mean ANY aspect of your contract is fair game in Chapter 11. The Chapter 11 you went through previously was a piggyback of AA's and your issues then will have little resemblence to any future proceeding as a result of pilot staffing a'la RAH. AMR didn't touch your contract because your own Union fleeced it's own pilots into thinking there was an 1113 when there wasn't and that's how they got capitulations. See, they were privately given the choice of bad or worse and then gussied it up to convince YOU to accept bad, that being concessions outside of 1113. History can easily repeat itself if the right card is played against your Union again, i.e., bad or worse.

.....and the explanation of the reality you are in deep denial over only took 1 paragraph.
If I remember correctly, the 1113 was proposed to the pilot group during bankruptcy, not outside of 1113. Your facts are slightly off. Carry-on!
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:50 PM
  #2963  
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it was what the union came back to the pilots with, it was never brought to the judge. union was paid off and so were the mec. pilots told the mec to take it to the judge.
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aviatrx View Post
If I remember correctly, the 1113 was proposed to the pilot group during bankruptcy, not outside of 1113. Your facts are slightly off. Carry-on!
Nope, I was dead on. Had many a discussion about this here and on EL at the time. As I said, there was no Envoy 1113, only the threat of it. ALPA blew smoke up the collective fanny's of the pilot group convincing them jt was better to take concessions outside of it (the submission of it to Judge Lane). ALPA took the worse instead of the bad as arguably, AMR wouldn't have likely gotten much with the 1113 process because A. Envoy pilots contract was competitive, if not industry trailing and B. Envoy was in and of itself profitable. ALPA just didn't want to expend money and Moak subsequently proved to Envoy pilots what ALPA was about concerning where they stood in ALPA's view with that infamous letter to you. It said in a nutshell, PLAY BALL !

The MEC toed nationals line and will again in a bad and worse scenario.
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Old 05-22-2016, 06:27 PM
  #2965  
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Silly Aviatrx, eaglefly is never wrong. And even when he is, its your misunderstanding, not his.
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Old 05-22-2016, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FlameNSky View Post
Silly Aviatrx, eaglefly is never wrong. And even when he is, its your misunderstanding, not his.
Sure I'm wrong at times just like you. But in this case she misread my post and my points were valid. Envoy is hiring less then are leaving and that is the crux of the problem. Your Union admits it.

Are we all wrong or do you believe Envoy will soon pull a rabbit out of a hat ? If so, could you explain to us all just how an airline that is losing more pilots then it hires will function as is, including the flow in perpetuity ?

I'm all ears.
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Old 05-22-2016, 06:50 PM
  #2967  
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Sorry, EF is right on this one. The 1113 was the stick they threatened is with, the bankruptcy contract with the "promise" of the 175's was the carrot. We signed, they gave the 175's to RAH.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:02 PM
  #2968  
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Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
Are we all wrong or do you believe Envoy will soon pull a rabbit out of a hat ? If so, could you explain to us all just how an airline that is losing more pilots then it hires will function as is, including the flow in perpetuity ?
Do you really think that they are just going to sit there and go, hmm, "I don't know what to do", while doing nothing? They have already instituted several incentives, although we all agree that they were/are inadequate. Common sense would suggest that they will be offering more incentives. Even Endeavor didn't end up with what they have all at once. They are on Rev 4, I believe.

I think that they are over a year behind the ball in what they finally offered during the first quarter of this year, and that the longer they wait, the less effective any incentives will be but they have the money, they will put it up, just not until it is almost too late. It's the AMR/AAG way.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FlameNSky View Post
Do you really think that they are just going to sit there and go, hmm, "I don't know what to do", while doing nothing? They have already instituted several incentives, although we all agree that they were/are inadequate. Common sense would suggest that they will be offering more incentives. Even Endeavor didn't end up with what they have all at once. They are on Rev 4, I believe.

I think that they are over a year behind the ball in what they finally offered during the first quarter of this year, and that the longer they wait, the less effective any incentives will be but they have the money, they will put it up, just not until it is almost too late. It's the AMR/AAG way.
"Almost too late" ? Just curious, but when is that ? It seems at this point that the only thing that draws in pilots is the E-175. With only 40, that simply cannot generate the attraction engine needed to run the upgrade/flow BOTH of which are hinged on not shrinking.

Look, I'd like to see them ante up and I agree it is they (Envoy management) that needs to do it, but it is AAG that must give them the right tools and so far, they haven't. In the interim an already parched pilot asset well only dries further. What happens when Envoy has 15% less pilots by the Holidays, but the same feed allocation ?

I shudder to think about it. If you ask me, they're already so far behind the power curve they're almost certain to plow into the approach lights. I hope your right, because I have strong doubts considering their performance so far.
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Old 05-23-2016, 12:17 AM
  #2970  
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...need help listing for spirit, anyone know the code to enter, if so, please pm. I need to list for a flight to Lga. i browsed through the JS reciprocal agreement and didn't find anything there or I may have possibly missed it


thanks
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