What's the Latest at ASA/Expressjet?
#6151
What do you think will happen when that 1 year "contract" ("policy manual") ends?
Do you have ANY recourse if you are unjustly fired ("won't happen to me")?
What happens if you refuse an airplane on what you feel are legitimate safety grounds and a chief pilot won't back you up?
Who do you call if you lose your medical and need help getting it back?
Do you think SAPA should be allowed to participate in national airline labor gatherings, and be able to lobby congress on issues that affect you directly?
Do you have ANY recourse if you are unjustly fired ("won't happen to me")?
What happens if you refuse an airplane on what you feel are legitimate safety grounds and a chief pilot won't back you up?
Who do you call if you lose your medical and need help getting it back?
Do you think SAPA should be allowed to participate in national airline labor gatherings, and be able to lobby congress on issues that affect you directly?
#6152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
New wrinkle...... ASA just sponsored a resolution at ALPA National that Mainline Carriers (ALPA Carriers), hire ONLY from Union Carriers... Passed by 100%.. Great work gentlemen!
AnchorDown
AnchorDown
No carrier….shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organization
#6153
All ALPA contracts are "closed shop". That means you still have to pay dues, even if you're a non member. And its legal under the RLA. 
Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.

Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.
#6154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
All ALPA contracts are "closed shop". That means you still have to pay dues, even if you're a non member. And its legal under the RLA. 
Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.

Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.
A union shop just means that non-union members covered by the CBA still have to pay some dues to the union to cover administrative costs and the like. Closed shops are illegal in the United States, union shops are not.
Lastly, you don't have to be an attorney to read and comprehend the law.
#6155
From ASA Contract 2007:
29. AGENCY SHOP AND ALPA PAC
Agency Shop
1.
Each pilot covered by this Agreement will be required as a condition of employment, beginning sixty (60) days after the effective date of this Agreement, or after the completion of his probationary period, whichever will last occur (1) to be or become a member of the Association, or (2) to pay to the Association a monthly service charge for the administration of this Agreement and representation of the pilot. Such monthly service charge will be equal to the Association’s regular monthly dues, initiation fee, and periodic assess- ments, including MEC assessments, which would be re- quired to be paid by such pilot if a member; provided that neither membership nor the payment of a service charge will be required in respect to any such pilot (a) for whom mem- bership is not available upon the same terms and conditions generally applicable to any other member, or (b) as to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure to tender periodic dues, initiation fees and assessments uniformly required by the Association or the MEC as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
If a pilot who is required under this Agreement to make payment of a service charge and/or membership dues, and/ or initiation fees, and/or periodic assessments (as defined in paragraph A.1., above) becomes delinquent in accordance with the Association’s Constitution and By-Laws in the making of such payment, the Association will notify such pilot by certified mail (return receipt requested), copy to the Vice President, Flight Operations of the Company, or his desig- nee, that he is delinquent in the payments specified, the total amount of money due, the period for which he is delinquent and that he is subject to discharge as an employee of the Company. Such letter will also notify the pilot that he must remit the required payment within a period of fifteen (15) days or be discharged. The notice of delinquency required under this paragraph will be deemed to be received by the pilot, whether or not it is personally received by him, when mailed by the Vice President of Finance of the Association by certified mail (return receipt requested), postage pre-paid to the pilot’s last known address, or to any other address that
2.
has been designated by the pilot. It will be the duty of every pilot to notify the Association’s Membership Services Depart- ment of every change in his home address, or of an address where the notice required by this paragraph can be sent and received by the pilot, if the pilot’s home address is at any time unacceptable for this purpose.
If, upon the expiration of the fifteen (15) day period, the pilot remains delinquent, the Vice President of Finance of the Association will certify in writing to the Vice President, Flight Operations of the Company, or his designee, a copy to the pilot, both by certified mail (return receipt requested), that the pilot has failed to remit payment within the grace period allowed and is therefore to be discharged. The Vice Presi- dent, Flight Operations, or his designee, will, within five (5) days, terminate the service of such employee as a pilot.
A protest by a pilot who is to be discharged as a result of an interpretation or application of the provisions of this Section will be subject to the following procedure:
a.
A pilot who believes that the provisions of this Section have not been properly interpreted or applied as they pertain to him may submit his request for review in writing within five (5) days from the date of his notification by the Vice President, Flight Operations, as provided in paragraph A.3., above. The request must be sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, who will review the protest and render a decision in writing no later than five (5) days following receipt of the protest. The Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, will forward his decision to the pilot with a copy to the Association, both by certified mail, return receipt re- quested. Said decision will be final and binding on all interested parties unless appealed as hereinafter pro- vided. If the decision is not satisfactory to the pilot or the Association, then either may appeal within ten (10) days from the receipt of the decision, by filing notice of such appeal. Such notice will be sent to the other party and to the Company, by certified mail, return receipt requested. The appeal will be directed to a neutral referee who may be agreed upon by the pilot and the Association within ten (10) days of receipt of the notice of appeal. If the
b.
Section 29 – Agency Shop and ALPA PAC
parties fail to agree upon a neutral referee within the specified period, either the pilot or the Association may request the National Mediation Board to name such neutral referee. The hearing before the neutral referee will be held as soon as possible, and the neutral referee will be requested to render a decision within thirty (30) days after the hearing. The decision of the neutral referee will be final and binding on all parties to the dispute. The fees and charges of such neutral referee will be borne equally by the pilot and the Association.
During the period a protest is being handled under the provisions of this Section, and until the final decision is rendered by the Vice President, Flight Operations, his designee or the neutral referee, the pilot will not be dis- charged from the Company nor lose any seniority rights because of non-compliance with the terms and provisions of this Section.
A pilot discharged by the Company under the provisions of this Section will be deemed to have been “discharged for cause” within the meaning of the terms and provisions of this Agreement.
The Company will not be liable for any time or wage claim of a pilot discharged by the Company pursuant to a written order by an authorized Association representative under the terms of this Section.
Agency Shop
1.
Each pilot covered by this Agreement will be required as a condition of employment, beginning sixty (60) days after the effective date of this Agreement, or after the completion of his probationary period, whichever will last occur (1) to be or become a member of the Association, or (2) to pay to the Association a monthly service charge for the administration of this Agreement and representation of the pilot. Such monthly service charge will be equal to the Association’s regular monthly dues, initiation fee, and periodic assess- ments, including MEC assessments, which would be re- quired to be paid by such pilot if a member; provided that neither membership nor the payment of a service charge will be required in respect to any such pilot (a) for whom mem- bership is not available upon the same terms and conditions generally applicable to any other member, or (b) as to whom membership was denied or terminated for any reason other than the failure to tender periodic dues, initiation fees and assessments uniformly required by the Association or the MEC as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership.
If a pilot who is required under this Agreement to make payment of a service charge and/or membership dues, and/ or initiation fees, and/or periodic assessments (as defined in paragraph A.1., above) becomes delinquent in accordance with the Association’s Constitution and By-Laws in the making of such payment, the Association will notify such pilot by certified mail (return receipt requested), copy to the Vice President, Flight Operations of the Company, or his desig- nee, that he is delinquent in the payments specified, the total amount of money due, the period for which he is delinquent and that he is subject to discharge as an employee of the Company. Such letter will also notify the pilot that he must remit the required payment within a period of fifteen (15) days or be discharged. The notice of delinquency required under this paragraph will be deemed to be received by the pilot, whether or not it is personally received by him, when mailed by the Vice President of Finance of the Association by certified mail (return receipt requested), postage pre-paid to the pilot’s last known address, or to any other address that
2.
has been designated by the pilot. It will be the duty of every pilot to notify the Association’s Membership Services Depart- ment of every change in his home address, or of an address where the notice required by this paragraph can be sent and received by the pilot, if the pilot’s home address is at any time unacceptable for this purpose.
If, upon the expiration of the fifteen (15) day period, the pilot remains delinquent, the Vice President of Finance of the Association will certify in writing to the Vice President, Flight Operations of the Company, or his designee, a copy to the pilot, both by certified mail (return receipt requested), that the pilot has failed to remit payment within the grace period allowed and is therefore to be discharged. The Vice Presi- dent, Flight Operations, or his designee, will, within five (5) days, terminate the service of such employee as a pilot.
A protest by a pilot who is to be discharged as a result of an interpretation or application of the provisions of this Section will be subject to the following procedure:
a.
A pilot who believes that the provisions of this Section have not been properly interpreted or applied as they pertain to him may submit his request for review in writing within five (5) days from the date of his notification by the Vice President, Flight Operations, as provided in paragraph A.3., above. The request must be sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, who will review the protest and render a decision in writing no later than five (5) days following receipt of the protest. The Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, will forward his decision to the pilot with a copy to the Association, both by certified mail, return receipt re- quested. Said decision will be final and binding on all interested parties unless appealed as hereinafter pro- vided. If the decision is not satisfactory to the pilot or the Association, then either may appeal within ten (10) days from the receipt of the decision, by filing notice of such appeal. Such notice will be sent to the other party and to the Company, by certified mail, return receipt requested. The appeal will be directed to a neutral referee who may be agreed upon by the pilot and the Association within ten (10) days of receipt of the notice of appeal. If the
b.
Section 29 – Agency Shop and ALPA PAC
parties fail to agree upon a neutral referee within the specified period, either the pilot or the Association may request the National Mediation Board to name such neutral referee. The hearing before the neutral referee will be held as soon as possible, and the neutral referee will be requested to render a decision within thirty (30) days after the hearing. The decision of the neutral referee will be final and binding on all parties to the dispute. The fees and charges of such neutral referee will be borne equally by the pilot and the Association.
During the period a protest is being handled under the provisions of this Section, and until the final decision is rendered by the Vice President, Flight Operations, his designee or the neutral referee, the pilot will not be dis- charged from the Company nor lose any seniority rights because of non-compliance with the terms and provisions of this Section.
A pilot discharged by the Company under the provisions of this Section will be deemed to have been “discharged for cause” within the meaning of the terms and provisions of this Agreement.
The Company will not be liable for any time or wage claim of a pilot discharged by the Company pursuant to a written order by an authorized Association representative under the terms of this Section.
#6156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
All ALPA contracts are "closed shop". That means you still have to pay dues, even if you're a non member. And its legal under the RLA. 
Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.

Furthermore, the snipped of the RLA you googled/cut/pasted is totally not applicable to the topic at hand. That means the company can't interfere in union drives and elections. It says nothing about negotiating contract provisions to only hire from ALPA carriers (far fetched, but legal).
Wish I had a buck for all the armchair attorneys out there who think they have all the answers thanks to google.
Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for the purposes of this chapter. No carrier, its officers, or agents shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organization, labor representative, or other agency of collective bargaining, or in performing any work therefor, or to influence or coerce employees in an effort to induce them to join or remain or not to join or remain members of any labor organization, or to deduct from the wages of employees any dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions payable to labor organizations, or to collect or to assist in the collection of any such dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions: Provided, That nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prohibit a carrier from permitting an employee, individually, or local representatives of employees from conferring with management during working hours without loss of time, or to prohibit a carrier from furnishing free transportation to its employees while engaged in the business of a labor organization.
No carrier, its officers, or agents shall require any person seeking employment to sign any contract or agreement promising to join or not to join a labor organization; and if any such contract has been enforced prior to the effective date of this chapter, then such carrier shall notify the employees by an appropriate order that such contract has been discarded and is no longer binding on them in any way.
No carrier, its officers, or agents shall require any person seeking employment to sign any contract or agreement promising to join or not to join a labor organization; and if any such contract has been enforced prior to the effective date of this chapter, then such carrier shall notify the employees by an appropriate order that such contract has been discarded and is no longer binding on them in any way.
#6157
Either way, your previous comment that forcing mainline carriers to hire ALPA pilots is "closed shop" is incorrect, even under your spurious definition. No one is being forced to join ALPA, they're just being rewarded for it in ALPA contracts.
No, you don't "have' to be a lawyer to read and interpret contracts, but it helps if you want to interpret them correctly.
And thanks for your "help', but I'm quite well versed in the interpretation and use of the RLA and many labor contracts.
No, you don't "have' to be a lawyer to read and interpret contracts, but it helps if you want to interpret them correctly.
And thanks for your "help', but I'm quite well versed in the interpretation and use of the RLA and many labor contracts.
#6158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Either way, your previous comment that forcing mainline carriers to hire ALPA pilots is "closed shop" is incorrect, even under your spurious definition. No one is being forced to join ALPA, they're just being rewarded for it in ALPA contracts.
No, you don't "have' to be a lawyer to read and interpret contracts, but it helps if you want to interpret them correctly.
And thanks for your "help', but I'm quite well versed in the interpretation and use of the RLA and many labor contracts.
No, you don't "have' to be a lawyer to read and interpret contracts, but it helps if you want to interpret them correctly.
And thanks for your "help', but I'm quite well versed in the interpretation and use of the RLA and many labor contracts.
If you have to be a member of ALPA to get hired at an ALPA carrier how are you not being forced to join ALPA? You cannot get the job without joining the union.
Now, I will concede that the original post by Anchor Down said hire from only union carriers and not hire only union members which is two different things because you can work for a union carrier without being a union member.
Last edited by NE_Pilot; 05-26-2014 at 07:12 AM.
#6159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
I hope your comprehension of Labor law is better than interpreting CT's posts
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