Read the latest NC update
01-12-2023, 09:02 AM
#42
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 24
Exactly right
Originally Posted by BrianH
I am going to have to pile on here a bit.
I agree the NC has worked very hard, for that I am thankful. But just because you work hard doesn't mean you did well. Results matter. SHOW ME THE MONEY.
And by that I want more money in EVERY section possible. I will not be happy nor vote for a TA that has one thing fixed and the rest below expectations. WE HAVE EARNED THE BEST CBA IN THE INDUSTRY. PERIOD.
So I asked the NC Chair a question yesterday. I said, you said you are going for a 50% replacement ratio in our pension. And you have said you TAd section 28 without knowing the pay rates. SO either you you reached for a very high FAE like $530K (our current formula limit) or you tied our pension to pay rates like PSPP. Care to comment? After five or so minutes talking, his answer was "no" he was not going to answer. I fear PSPP in some form is back. And I fear all new hires will be forced into the "new" pension.
About your one size does not fit all, I have to disagree. Wa are labor. We must think more collectively. I have to think about the new hire, the ones who are out on LTD, domestic flyers, international flyers, pilots who get secondary lines, pilots who are about to retire, pilots who are getting divorced, pilots who just go t married, In short, I have to worry about all pilots and so should you. We must stand together or we will be divided and conquered.
When we stood shoulder to shoulder on Democrat, no one asked us which section we were most concerned with so they could put us in the right part of the line. WE were ALPA standing for ALL of us, carrying all of our concerns. We have to do the same when it comest to supporting our contract.
NO CONSESSIONS.
Anything less is capitulation.
I agree the NC has worked very hard, for that I am thankful. But just because you work hard doesn't mean you did well. Results matter. SHOW ME THE MONEY.
And by that I want more money in EVERY section possible. I will not be happy nor vote for a TA that has one thing fixed and the rest below expectations. WE HAVE EARNED THE BEST CBA IN THE INDUSTRY. PERIOD.
So I asked the NC Chair a question yesterday. I said, you said you are going for a 50% replacement ratio in our pension. And you have said you TAd section 28 without knowing the pay rates. SO either you you reached for a very high FAE like $530K (our current formula limit) or you tied our pension to pay rates like PSPP. Care to comment? After five or so minutes talking, his answer was "no" he was not going to answer. I fear PSPP in some form is back. And I fear all new hires will be forced into the "new" pension.
About your one size does not fit all, I have to disagree. Wa are labor. We must think more collectively. I have to think about the new hire, the ones who are out on LTD, domestic flyers, international flyers, pilots who get secondary lines, pilots who are about to retire, pilots who are getting divorced, pilots who just go t married, In short, I have to worry about all pilots and so should you. We must stand together or we will be divided and conquered.
When we stood shoulder to shoulder on Democrat, no one asked us which section we were most concerned with so they could put us in the right part of the line. WE were ALPA standing for ALL of us, carrying all of our concerns. We have to do the same when it comest to supporting our contract.
NO CONSESSIONS.
Anything less is capitulation.
01-12-2023, 09:09 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by Anthrax
wiggle room my ass. this is why our work rules suck. our retirement has been locked since ‘99. our pay rates are sub par and have been for several years now, our training section sucks, and why, in the past, we’ve taken needless concessions: this soft approach to hard business, which is sickening. imagine if all the pilots approached a TA with wiggle room, the wiggle gets bigger, becomes porous, crap takes us by surprise, and we get 2015 all over again!
and all you supporters and defenders of 2015 should shut up and suck your thumbs!
just my opinion. i could be wrong. but i’m not.
#zero-point-zero concessions!
and all you supporters and defenders of 2015 should shut up and suck your thumbs!
just my opinion. i could be wrong. but i’m not.
#zero-point-zero concessions!
01-12-2023, 09:38 AM
#44
Not a real airline pilot
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: Cargo > Pax
Posts: 365
Regardless of who said it, social media is a cancer upon society at large. He's not wrong about that. Giving uninformed morons a platform from which to scream their idiocy is not constructive.
This is why the Facebook group JF is a hard no for myself. I won't pretend to speak for anyone else. There is no amount of cajoling that would induce me to even make a FB account. It's not healthy to drink poison every day and then wonder why I'm sick. Any potential layover gouge would be greatly offset by the data collection and parroting of nonsensical garbage.
As for AIP/TA/CBA...I'm a total heretic. I have no hard lines in the sand. I will read the entire document multiple times, and consider its effects in total to the best of my abilities. Then I will vote my conscience. My coworkers do not get a vote in how I bid each month, nor do they get influence my personal TA vote. I will be junior in the left seat for the next decade+, so obviously the entire span of work rules will be under scrutiny. I'm not unique in that aspect. Straw polls around my small patch of seniority reveal similar pragmatic thinkers.
It's funny, I've only flown with one "yes" voter on the 2015 CBA. So strange. The autistic screeching of the vocal minority is tiring. But I don't expect these keyboard warriors to surrender the microphone from their self-inflated hero pulpit. Nixon's famous silent majority will be at work, as always. I'm thankful that a few smart guys have stepped up to fight for us in a job that I certainly don't want. I remain cautiously optimistic that the TA will be worth the wait.
This is why the Facebook group JF is a hard no for myself. I won't pretend to speak for anyone else. There is no amount of cajoling that would induce me to even make a FB account. It's not healthy to drink poison every day and then wonder why I'm sick. Any potential layover gouge would be greatly offset by the data collection and parroting of nonsensical garbage.
As for AIP/TA/CBA...I'm a total heretic. I have no hard lines in the sand. I will read the entire document multiple times, and consider its effects in total to the best of my abilities. Then I will vote my conscience. My coworkers do not get a vote in how I bid each month, nor do they get influence my personal TA vote. I will be junior in the left seat for the next decade+, so obviously the entire span of work rules will be under scrutiny. I'm not unique in that aspect. Straw polls around my small patch of seniority reveal similar pragmatic thinkers.
It's funny, I've only flown with one "yes" voter on the 2015 CBA. So strange. The autistic screeching of the vocal minority is tiring. But I don't expect these keyboard warriors to surrender the microphone from their self-inflated hero pulpit. Nixon's famous silent majority will be at work, as always. I'm thankful that a few smart guys have stepped up to fight for us in a job that I certainly don't want. I remain cautiously optimistic that the TA will be worth the wait.
01-12-2023, 09:57 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 446
Originally Posted by JunkyardDog
Brian, thanks for asking questions. I am also concerned that Pat’s Stupid Ponzi Plan (PSPP) is still in play. The guy just won’t give up his bone. It is difficult to have faith in NC when he calls social media a cancer to negotiations. In my opinion, keeping secrets, back room deals (OIMs, etc), and concessions are the cancer that keeps us from being a unified pilot group and getting an industry leading contract. I hope I am wrong.
Our NC chair is a good person. I have said AT THE RIGHT NUMBERS, PSPP could be a good deal, the problem is trust, and the details. Right now, with everything being hidden from the pilots, there is a lack of trust. I do understand the issues ALPA is wrestling with regarding real transparency. But sunlight is the best answer. Yes that comes with certain risk, but so does keeping things hidden.
Social media can be an issue. But good luck putting that genie back in the bottle. Don't let the rumors live. Deal this them by giving us facts. Say things like we are going for industry leading pay rates for the duration of our CBA, we are going for a pension benefit of a 50% replacement ratio for the duration of our CBA. Tell us (like our NC chair has) that they are focusing on raising our FAE or other path forward. It is time to earn our trust. They have a choice. We are down to pay rates, duration and our signing bonus (or what ever they are going to call it). What benefit is there to hide the facts from us now? How much better must the pay rates be to make up for whatever they are concerned about?
"Trust but verify", it was good enough for Reagan, It is good enough for me.
As for the survey results which where eluded to yesterday multiple times, you can have statistically relevant data which is Invalid due to lack of education and question form. I fear we are in the latter arena.
01-12-2023, 11:12 AM
#46
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by BrianH
JD,
Our NC chair is a good person. I have said AT THE RIGHT NUMBERS, PSPP could be a good deal, the problem is trust, and the details. Right now, with everything being hidden from the pilots, there is a lack of trust. I do understand the issues ALPA is wrestling with regarding real transparency. But sunlight is the best answer. Yes that comes with certain risk, but so does keeping things hidden.
Social media can be an issue. But good luck putting that genie back in the bottle. Don't let the rumors live. Deal this them by giving us facts. Say things like we are going for industry leading pay rates for the duration of our CBA, we are going for a pension benefit of a 50% replacement ratio for the duration of our CBA. Tell us (like our NC chair has) that they are focusing on raising our FAE or other path forward. It is time to earn our trust. They have a choice. We are down to pay rates, duration and our signing bonus (or what ever they are going to call it). What benefit is there to hide the facts from us now? How much better must the pay rates be to make up for whatever they are concerned about?
"Trust but verify", it was good enough for Reagan, It is good enough for me.
As for the survey results which where eluded to yesterday multiple times, you can have statistically relevant data which is Invalid due to lack of education and question form. I fear we are in the latter arena.
Our NC chair is a good person. I have said AT THE RIGHT NUMBERS, PSPP could be a good deal, the problem is trust, and the details. Right now, with everything being hidden from the pilots, there is a lack of trust. I do understand the issues ALPA is wrestling with regarding real transparency. But sunlight is the best answer. Yes that comes with certain risk, but so does keeping things hidden.
Social media can be an issue. But good luck putting that genie back in the bottle. Don't let the rumors live. Deal this them by giving us facts. Say things like we are going for industry leading pay rates for the duration of our CBA, we are going for a pension benefit of a 50% replacement ratio for the duration of our CBA. Tell us (like our NC chair has) that they are focusing on raising our FAE or other path forward. It is time to earn our trust. They have a choice. We are down to pay rates, duration and our signing bonus (or what ever they are going to call it). What benefit is there to hide the facts from us now? How much better must the pay rates be to make up for whatever they are concerned about?
"Trust but verify", it was good enough for Reagan, It is good enough for me.
As for the survey results which where eluded to yesterday multiple times, you can have statistically relevant data which is Invalid due to lack of education and question form. I fear we are in the latter arena.
I am sure NC is a good, hard working guy. Doesn’t mean he is right. I love the Reagan quote, but trust must be earned. I was willing to give benefit of doubt, until PSPP was offered to the Company years ago….(outside of Sec 6) without asking if the crew force supported it. That was a defining moment for me. Why was the PSPP calculator removed from ALPA website? How many people have retired without an increased benefit due to ALPA focus on PSPP?
The secrecy also breeds distrust. Comments that we must judge the TA in its entirety imply concessions were made in previously TA’d sections. Survey results that are kept secret (or selectively released) breeds distrust. We still don’t have the ‘final solution’ to Secondary Lines from the last contract. ALPA volunteers flying AVA. Block reps that aren’t even in their own seniority block.
I’m searching for reasons to have trust…..
Help me see the light.
01-12-2023, 11:32 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by Shaman
If the company can use the profits from revenues generated by us enduring hotel lock downs and exposure to a pandemic to do stock buybacks. They can afford to improve our retirement AND increase our pay rates. There's no "wiggle room". there will be no exchanges in productivity to offset economic gains. I don't care how long you've been here if you're going to consider those types of offers I would urge you to stiffen your resolve and reconsider.
Giving money to share holders does nothing to improve the business.
Giving money to share holders does nothing to improve the business.
Pheeeww, I have hope now! These are exactly the kind of responses I was optimistically hoping for and I could not agree more! The company should be using the profits, that we help make for them, and be reinvesting in its pilots 100% and NOT rewarding shareholders first, for doing what? I really hope this time we hold the line and get everything we have already earned and deserve (notice I didn't say want!) No concessions, not one. The company can cry me a river. I'm not looking to get paid for the work I'll do in the future, I demand to get paid for the work and sacrifice I've already given and performed. My family deserves nothing less.
01-12-2023, 11:39 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 607
I trust two people, one is me, and the other ain’t the NC chair.
Alpa is holding their cards close to vest lest they settle another lawsuit for false or exaggerated claims.
as for keyboard warriors, the written word is powerful. we should be discussing this stuff. and ain’t it funny how someone complaining about this is doing so via keyboard, virtue signaling how their words, thoughts, and ideas are superior to others. who cares about your stance on social media. we all know the pros and cons; however, there is value in these conversations, even if we have to sift through all the nonsense.
Alpa is holding their cards close to vest lest they settle another lawsuit for false or exaggerated claims.
as for keyboard warriors, the written word is powerful. we should be discussing this stuff. and ain’t it funny how someone complaining about this is doing so via keyboard, virtue signaling how their words, thoughts, and ideas are superior to others. who cares about your stance on social media. we all know the pros and cons; however, there is value in these conversations, even if we have to sift through all the nonsense.
01-12-2023, 12:58 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,219
Originally Posted by PurpleTail
Pheeeww, I have hope now! These are exactly the kind of responses I was optimistically hoping for and I could not agree more! The company should be using the profits, that we help make for them, and be reinvesting in its pilots 100% and NOT rewarding shareholders first, for doing what? I really hope this time we hold the line and get everything we have already earned and deserve (notice I didn't say want!) No concessions, not one. The company can cry me a river. I'm not looking to get paid for the work I'll do in the future, I demand to get paid for the work and sacrifice I've already given and performed. My family deserves nothing less.
Not. An. Inch.
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