Scope Discussion
04-29-2023 | 09:38 AM
#71
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 181
Likes: 36
Hearing that was a major slap in the face to anyone with 20+ years to go. PM just created two pilot groups with his words.
04-29-2023 | 09:42 AM
#72
Contract 2021
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 453
Likes: 4
From: 777 - Both
Hear hear. I’m glad I’m not the only one that was ****ed off….The reality is, we’re not going to see a TA until the company needs one and at that point if we do reject a TA we will see a second offer rather quickly. The amount of people who are quitting or preparing to quit is high, and a mediocre TA with delta rates and a retirement fix isn’t going to be enough to stop them. They want QOL, they want scheduling to stop offering their trips to jumpseaters for 150% while they get rerouted to do OT trips that nobody wants to do and all they get is straight pay, they want shorter limits on how long they can be extended into time off, they want…
You are certainly entitled to share your opinions, you just can’t back up your claims with any logic. I’ll take the information from those that have first hand experience and judgment on this issue.
04-29-2023 | 09:49 AM
#73
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 181
Likes: 36
Please tell me you are joking? What exactly do you base you “opinion” on? Is it because you have negotiated with FDX recently? Is it your experience from an elected position? I guess it’s easy to make these types of proclamations when you aren’t the one delivering on your expectations. Must be nice to sit in your castle and espouse certainty of outcome with zero experience or anything of substance.
You are certainly entitled to share your opinions, you just can’t back up your claims with any logic. I’ll take the information from those that have first hand experience and judgment on this issue.
You are certainly entitled to share your opinions, you just can’t back up your claims with any logic. I’ll take the information from those that have first hand experience and judgment on this issue.
04-29-2023 | 10:25 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
I have 20+ years to go and thought the presentation was very logical. Makes no sense to pull scope off the table right now. It seems like any changes we can make are no legally enforceable anyway for international flights outside the US.
04-29-2023 | 10:40 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,626
Likes: 0
Always staggering how differently each person hears the same broadcast. My NC speaks for me. I saw an exhausted and determined PM who has been getting pummeled on my behalf for the last couple years. His points seemed logical based upon what I know so far. I don't plan on being dazzled by any particular TA section to the detriment of another section. I need to see the entire document to evaluate the impact upon my family and my career going forward.
General statement: I understand there is no silver bullet regarding international scope. Period. No matter who disappointed I am with that statement, I don't see how blowing up a TA will fix this universal truth. Simultaneously, I'm not fearful that I must vote yes on this TA. I haven't read the document yet, so I honestly don't know what's in there. Both positions can coexist.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and subsequent vote obviously. I don't think other pilots who disagree with me are stupid. We are all coming from different paths and perspectives. But don't expect me to grab a pitchfork because of posts in all caps, with multiple exclamation marks, with logic that works in absolutes. Life doesn't work in absolutes from what I've observed. In the end, we may agree to disagree, and that's ok.
I didn't realize I was part of an identified minority oppressed group, the hapless post-2015 hires. As always, I can only speak for myself. Any sweeping statement that attempts to include "all post-2015 hires" as a singular group can be wholly disregarded.
General statement: I understand there is no silver bullet regarding international scope. Period. No matter who disappointed I am with that statement, I don't see how blowing up a TA will fix this universal truth. Simultaneously, I'm not fearful that I must vote yes on this TA. I haven't read the document yet, so I honestly don't know what's in there. Both positions can coexist.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and subsequent vote obviously. I don't think other pilots who disagree with me are stupid. We are all coming from different paths and perspectives. But don't expect me to grab a pitchfork because of posts in all caps, with multiple exclamation marks, with logic that works in absolutes. Life doesn't work in absolutes from what I've observed. In the end, we may agree to disagree, and that's ok.
I didn't realize I was part of an identified minority oppressed group, the hapless post-2015 hires. As always, I can only speak for myself. Any sweeping statement that attempts to include "all post-2015 hires" as a singular group can be wholly disregarded.
This is the most logical and rational post I've seen on the scope issue. Thank you for that. Everyone upset about scope needs to read his post. And they need to listen again to PM's speech, especially from 20 minutes to the end.
From PM's briefing:
20mins30sec: "Before we get into Scope I want to ensure you that the MEC is proactively looking at this agenda item this week and they're receiving full briefings from national and local subject matter experts. That said we've received emails citing concerns over scope in light of the company's public statements. The Negotiation Committee does not have the authority on our own to go and create a new priority for the pilots. The MEC must decide if there's a priority that's changed or a new priority that's entered into negotiations. That's the MEC's purview we do not have the authority to do that. However, this does not preclude us from crafting ideas and solutions that would have an immediate impact, a positive impact on the lower half of seniority."
If you think they haven't addressed scope, or listened to your DARTs, you're wrong.26mins: "There's other options that we have aside from opening up a section that's been TAd. We've already done that. We've already had some initial discussions with the company. Because again, don't take this as we are discarding the concerns of the crew members who have been hired here since 2015. This system bid causes a lot of concerns and anxiety and it should from everybody that has been here since that point of time. Umm but what we want to say is that we have other items we can bring to the table that won't disrupt bargaining. That won't cause the company to pull sections that they've already TAd. We have other more immediate impact things that we can address with the company in light of this system bid, So system bid 23-01 where you're closing down one FDA domicile and two pilot bases, one specific MD11 base in ANC and the other in LA, so there's an awful a lot of senior pilots in those bases. Do you think for a minute that those senior pilots who have been on the MD11 for the past 25 years want to come train the 777 in Memphis? That's right, that's right they don't. So does it make sense to offer an avenue to let those pilots come off the top, and to retire early, maybe incentive and or remove obstacles to retirement in the discussion? Because the more pilots we can pull off the top of this mess right now that the company has created in 23-01, the better off the junior pilots will be. There are other things we can do in negotiations as well to deal directly with stalled career progression, or career progression that isn't materializing in the way that you'd imagined or envisioned two years ago or a year ago. And we've brought those issues to the table. So we have more actionable items that can be achieved quicker and in more sufficient manner to deal with the problems that a lot of pilots have identified, clearly identified through this corporate wide restructure, that we can deal with at the table. And we're going to move those issues forward. But we all have to kind of go together on this. We have to have the MEC support to continue to fight that fight and we have to stand together during this pretty trying time."
29mins: "The opinions matter. There's pilots concerned about, significantly concerned about scope and the direction this company has chosen to take in it's historic um network redesign. So we're not taking that lightly. We're not ignoring it. We're taking proactive measures to deal with it the best way we can that won't harm what we've put on the table."
I am thankful that we have PM at the helm of the Negotiating Committee. They've listened to the scope concerns and are actively addressing them without trying to derail TAd sections of the negotiations while still trying to get a deal on industry leading pay rates in an environment which has our company struggling and restructuring to keep up with our competitors.
MY NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE SPEAKS FOR ME !!!
04-29-2023 | 10:45 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
THIS ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^ THIS ^^^^ THIS ^^^^^ THIS
This is the most logical and rational post I've seen on the scope issue. Thank you for that. Everyone upset about scope needs to read his post. And they need to listen again to PM's speech, especially from 20 minutes to the end.
From PM's briefing:
29mins: "The opinions matter. There's pilots concerned about, significantly concerned about scope and the direction this company has chosen to take in it's historic um network redesign. So we're not taking that lightly. We're not ignoring it. We're taking proactive measures to deal with it the best way we can that won't harm what we've put on the table."
Did you pay attention? Please take a deep breath. Turn off social media for the weekend. But please watch the speech again.
I am thankful that we have PM at the helm of the Negotiating Committee. They've listened to the scope concerns and are actively addressing them without trying to derail TAd sections of the negotiations while still trying to get a deal on industry leading pay rates in an environment which has our company struggling and restructuring to keep up with our competitors.
MY NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE SPEAKS FOR ME !!!
This is the most logical and rational post I've seen on the scope issue. Thank you for that. Everyone upset about scope needs to read his post. And they need to listen again to PM's speech, especially from 20 minutes to the end.
From PM's briefing:
20mins30sec: "Before we get into Scope I want to ensure you that the MEC is proactively looking at this agenda item this week and they're receiving full briefings from national and local subject matter experts. That said we've received emails citing concerns over scope in light of the company's public statements. The Negotiation Committee does not have the authority on our own to go and create a new priority for the pilots. The MEC must decide if there's a priority that's changed or a new priority that's entered into negotiations. That's the MEC's purview we do not have the authority to do that. However, this does not preclude us from crafting ideas and solutions that would have an immediate impact, a positive impact on the lower half of seniority."
If you think they haven't addressed scope, or listened to your DARTs, you're wrong.26mins: "There's other options that we have aside from opening up a section that's been TAd. We've already done that. We've already had some initial discussions with the company. Because again, don't take this as we are discarding the concerns of the crew members who have been hired here since 2015. This system bid causes a lot of concerns and anxiety and it should from everybody that has been here since that point of time. Umm but what we want to say is that we have other items we can bring to the table that won't disrupt bargaining. That won't cause the company to pull sections that they've already TAd. We have other more immediate impact things that we can address with the company in light of this system bid, So system bid 23-01 where you're closing down one FDA domicile and two pilot bases, one specific MD11 base in ANC and the other in LA, so there's an awful a lot of senior pilots in those bases. Do you think for a minute that those senior pilots who have been on the MD11 for the past 25 years want to come train the 777 in Memphis? That's right, that's right they don't. So does it make sense to offer an avenue to let those pilots come off the top, and to retire early, maybe incentive and or remove obstacles to retirement in the discussion? Because the more pilots we can pull off the top of this mess right now that the company has created in 23-01, the better off the junior pilots will be. There are other things we can do in negotiations as well to deal directly with stalled career progression, or career progression that isn't materializing in the way that you'd imagined or envisioned two years ago or a year ago. And we've brought those issues to the table. So we have more actionable items that can be achieved quicker and in more sufficient manner to deal with the problems that a lot of pilots have identified, clearly identified through this corporate wide restructure, that we can deal with at the table. And we're going to move those issues forward. But we all have to kind of go together on this. We have to have the MEC support to continue to fight that fight and we have to stand together during this pretty trying time."
29mins: "The opinions matter. There's pilots concerned about, significantly concerned about scope and the direction this company has chosen to take in it's historic um network redesign. So we're not taking that lightly. We're not ignoring it. We're taking proactive measures to deal with it the best way we can that won't harm what we've put on the table."
Did you pay attention? Please take a deep breath. Turn off social media for the weekend. But please watch the speech again.
I am thankful that we have PM at the helm of the Negotiating Committee. They've listened to the scope concerns and are actively addressing them without trying to derail TAd sections of the negotiations while still trying to get a deal on industry leading pay rates in an environment which has our company struggling and restructuring to keep up with our competitors.
MY NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE SPEAKS FOR ME !!!
04-29-2023 | 10:50 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,626
Likes: 0
Hear hear. I’m glad I’m not the only one that was ****ed off about the tone in which the need for job security for post 2015 hires was disregarded.
Looking forward to reading a TA, and probably voting no. Will be happy to change my mind and vote yes if it’s excellent and what we deserve, but I know it’s not likely because our ask in too many areas was either too low or completely nonexistent.
Pat said “don’t expect to vote no on a TA and see another one in short order” which couldn’t be further from the truth of what’s going to happen. The reality is, we’re not going to see a TA until the company needs one and at that point if we do reject a TA we will see a second offer rather quickly. The amount of people who are quitting or preparing to quit is high, and a mediocre TA with delta rates and a retirement fix isn’t going to be enough to stop them. They want QOL, they want scheduling to stop offering their trips to jumpseaters for 150% while they get rerouted to do OT trips that nobody wants to do and all they get is straight pay, they want shorter limits on how long they can be extended into time off, they want to get paid handsomely for revisions and losses of a BEDH, not just a few meager hours of add pay, they want hotels and GT for all training events, even in domicile, they want to have an expense report closed out without the company taking thousands out of their paycheck when they have tens of thousands of DBA money, they want the company to stop taking money out of their paychecks for scheduled layover hotels, they want to stay at better hotels than “insert dump next to mall here” etc etc etc
Looking forward to reading a TA, and probably voting no. Will be happy to change my mind and vote yes if it’s excellent and what we deserve, but I know it’s not likely because our ask in too many areas was either too low or completely nonexistent.
Pat said “don’t expect to vote no on a TA and see another one in short order” which couldn’t be further from the truth of what’s going to happen. The reality is, we’re not going to see a TA until the company needs one and at that point if we do reject a TA we will see a second offer rather quickly. The amount of people who are quitting or preparing to quit is high, and a mediocre TA with delta rates and a retirement fix isn’t going to be enough to stop them. They want QOL, they want scheduling to stop offering their trips to jumpseaters for 150% while they get rerouted to do OT trips that nobody wants to do and all they get is straight pay, they want shorter limits on how long they can be extended into time off, they want to get paid handsomely for revisions and losses of a BEDH, not just a few meager hours of add pay, they want hotels and GT for all training events, even in domicile, they want to have an expense report closed out without the company taking thousands out of their paycheck when they have tens of thousands of DBA money, they want the company to stop taking money out of their paychecks for scheduled layover hotels, they want to stay at better hotels than “insert dump next to mall here” etc etc etc
"if we do reject a TA we will see a second offer rather quickly. " .... You DO NOT know this. You need to stop saying this because nobody knows the answer to this. This type of thought didn't work out for FedEx Ground's largest contractor. FedEx fired them. They even sued them to boot!
https://www.automotive-fleet.com/101...est-contractor
"The amount of people who are quitting or preparing to quit is high" FedEx DOESN'T CARE. We're over staffed. And then you go on a diatribe about all your wants. Who wouldn't want all of that stuff. You feel entitled well beyond the worth you bring to the bottom line. You need to come down to reality. It is time to become an adult and understand the situation that is before you.
04-29-2023 | 11:24 AM
#79
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 181
Likes: 36
THIS ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^ THIS ^^^^ THIS ^^^^^ THIS
This is the most logical and rational post I've seen on the scope issue. Thank you for that. Everyone upset about scope needs to read his post. And they need to listen again to PM's speech, especially from 20 minutes to the end.
From PM's briefing:
29mins: "The opinions matter. There's pilots concerned about, significantly concerned about scope and the direction this company has chosen to take in it's historic um network redesign. So we're not taking that lightly. We're not ignoring it. We're taking proactive measures to deal with it the best way we can that won't harm what we've put on the table."
Did you pay attention? Please take a deep breath. Turn off social media for the weekend. But please watch the speech again.
I am thankful that we have PM at the helm of the Negotiating Committee. They've listened to the scope concerns and are actively addressing them without trying to derail TAd sections of the negotiations while still trying to get a deal on industry leading pay rates in an environment which has our company struggling and restructuring to keep up with our competitors.
MY NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE SPEAKS FOR ME !!!
This is the most logical and rational post I've seen on the scope issue. Thank you for that. Everyone upset about scope needs to read his post. And they need to listen again to PM's speech, especially from 20 minutes to the end.
From PM's briefing:
20mins30sec: "Before we get into Scope I want to ensure you that the MEC is proactively looking at this agenda item this week and they're receiving full briefings from national and local subject matter experts. That said we've received emails citing concerns over scope in light of the company's public statements. The Negotiation Committee does not have the authority on our own to go and create a new priority for the pilots. The MEC must decide if there's a priority that's changed or a new priority that's entered into negotiations. That's the MEC's purview we do not have the authority to do that. However, this does not preclude us from crafting ideas and solutions that would have an immediate impact, a positive impact on the lower half of seniority."
If you think they haven't addressed scope, or listened to your DARTs, you're wrong.26mins: "There's other options that we have aside from opening up a section that's been TAd. We've already done that. We've already had some initial discussions with the company. Because again, don't take this as we are discarding the concerns of the crew members who have been hired here since 2015. This system bid causes a lot of concerns and anxiety and it should from everybody that has been here since that point of time. Umm but what we want to say is that we have other items we can bring to the table that won't disrupt bargaining. That won't cause the company to pull sections that they've already TAd. We have other more immediate impact things that we can address with the company in light of this system bid, So system bid 23-01 where you're closing down one FDA domicile and two pilot bases, one specific MD11 base in ANC and the other in LA, so there's an awful a lot of senior pilots in those bases. Do you think for a minute that those senior pilots who have been on the MD11 for the past 25 years want to come train the 777 in Memphis? That's right, that's right they don't. So does it make sense to offer an avenue to let those pilots come off the top, and to retire early, maybe incentive and or remove obstacles to retirement in the discussion? Because the more pilots we can pull off the top of this mess right now that the company has created in 23-01, the better off the junior pilots will be. There are other things we can do in negotiations as well to deal directly with stalled career progression, or career progression that isn't materializing in the way that you'd imagined or envisioned two years ago or a year ago. And we've brought those issues to the table. So we have more actionable items that can be achieved quicker and in more sufficient manner to deal with the problems that a lot of pilots have identified, clearly identified through this corporate wide restructure, that we can deal with at the table. And we're going to move those issues forward. But we all have to kind of go together on this. We have to have the MEC support to continue to fight that fight and we have to stand together during this pretty trying time."
29mins: "The opinions matter. There's pilots concerned about, significantly concerned about scope and the direction this company has chosen to take in it's historic um network redesign. So we're not taking that lightly. We're not ignoring it. We're taking proactive measures to deal with it the best way we can that won't harm what we've put on the table."
Did you pay attention? Please take a deep breath. Turn off social media for the weekend. But please watch the speech again.
I am thankful that we have PM at the helm of the Negotiating Committee. They've listened to the scope concerns and are actively addressing them without trying to derail TAd sections of the negotiations while still trying to get a deal on industry leading pay rates in an environment which has our company struggling and restructuring to keep up with our competitors.
MY NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE SPEAKS FOR ME !!!
04-29-2023 | 11:45 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 398
Likes: 1
Two years into negotiations and a year past our goal for a TA and now, suddenly, anyone voicing a concern is saying “damn the rest of you” (18:40 in the vid) to those about to retire. Would be nice to save the tough talk for the company rather than to divide our pilot group.
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