Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums - Find your next job as a Pilot > >
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics
 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-03-2014, 12:10 PM   #21  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain
Posts: 927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnCenterline View Post
Okay, I don't normally say something like this on APC, but there are 2 places I hope you don't wind up: on my seniority list, or in management.
I bet when you rented airplanes you insisted on Hand-propping the airplane because that's they way it used to be. I say anything that increases situational awareness of a pilot should be used if available. One thing about building time towards a career as an airline pilot, is this: You violate any airspace, break a FAR and your flying career is OVER as far as airlines are concerned - something military pilots are not exposed to. Their Military flight record as far as mishaps and airspace violations, accidents etc stay with their squadron commander/or whoever keeps those files, and are not a public matter
krudawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2014, 05:19 PM   #22  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Aviator89's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 288
Default

Who said "plotting waypoints" cant be direct? Pilotage waypoints, VOR cross radials, DME from a VOR etc, etc. can't all be plotted on a direct route? You always have some sort of landmark you can still "plot waypoints" for. You are far over thinking this. Also, bring you damn Ipad, and a sectional. Then, if it so suits you AFTER making a true flight plan for you to follow along with you still have it as a back up, or even a primary. The school you are renting from probably just wants you to do all your math (including ETA, ETE etc).
But seriously, if marking a few waypoints down on a piece of paper with approximate time enroute to is an issue. I wont say, get out of aviation. But damn man, you are a pilot. Deal with it. Or get out. Because pilot life will be rough for you when you cant do things exactly how you want all the time. Trust me, things never go exactly as planned in aviation.

Last edited by Aviator89; 09-03-2014 at 05:34 PM.
Aviator89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2014, 05:56 PM   #23  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KF5OVP View Post
My point is that I prefer to go direct. I feel like if the iPad did fail, I still would have a sectional to look at, VOR,etc. I don't see the need in plotting courses. And I know how much gas I'm consuming. I can plot direct, I don't want to plot waypoints.
What am I missing? You can't plot a straight course line and fly a wind corrected heading using pilotage?

I think it's a fair question to ask if you have an instrument rating, if not, what's the big deal to practice skill that should fundamental? I'd also echo the comments about "it's their plane, don't like it go somewhere else". Either agree to the policy and abide by it, or don't and go somewhere else.

There are tons of ways to safely operate and aircraft, but If you're looking to work as a pilot at some point, get used to flying you're employer's way. You'll find it to be a very short career if you fly your way because you know best, or a policy is a hassle, or whatever. If that's truly your attitude, you can stay outta my cockpit also.

Last edited by CRM114; 09-03-2014 at 06:07 PM.
CRM114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2014, 07:06 PM   #24  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain
Posts: 927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
What am I missing? You can't plot a straight course line and fly a wind corrected heading using pilotage?

I think it's a fair question to ask if you have an instrument rating, if not, what's the big deal to practice skill that should fundamental? I'd also echo the comments about "it's their plane, don't like it go somewhere else". Either agree to the policy and abide by it, or don't and go somewhere else.

There are tons of ways to safely operate and aircraft, but If you're looking to work as a pilot at some point, get used to flying you're employer's way. You'll find it to be a very short career if you fly your way because you know best, or a policy is a hassle, or whatever. If that's truly your attitude, you can stay outta my cockpit also.
Why are you beating up on this guy. Nobody plots a course anymore - fixes are entered into the FMC and it draws a magenta line to your destination. Have you seen what Garmin has done for General Aviation?
They are making VOR's practically obsolete. Sure, it's good practice but if you want to practice something that will do you some good in the future, learn "Glass" - Boeing FMC stuff and know it inside and out because if your ultimate goal is flying for an airline, you'll need this (don't bother with Airbus glass because the bus is junk :-) ) But your point about doing what your employer tells you, like how to fly their airplanes. But give the guy a break, he wants to increase his situational awareness NOT his workload.
krudawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2014, 07:57 PM   #25  
Gets three weeks off.
 
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krudawg View Post
Why are you beating up on this guy. Nobody plots a course anymore - fixes are entered into the FMC and it draws a magenta line to your destination. Have you seen what Garmin has done for General Aviation?
They are making VOR's practically obsolete. Sure, it's good practice but if you want to practice something that will do you some good in the future, learn "Glass" - Boeing FMC stuff and know it inside and out because if your ultimate goal is flying for an airline, you'll need this (don't bother with Airbus glass because the bus is junk :-) ) But your point about doing what your employer tells you, like how to fly their airplanes. But give the guy a break, he wants to increase his situational awareness NOT his workload.
Oh you're a child of the magenta line (CML)... useless.
aviatorhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2014, 08:24 PM   #26  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krudawg View Post
Why are you beating up on this guy. Nobody plots a course anymore - fixes are entered into the FMC and it draws a magenta line to your destination. Have you seen what Garmin has done for General Aviation?
They are making VOR's practically obsolete. Sure, it's good practice but if you want to practice something that will do you some good in the future, learn "Glass" - Boeing FMC stuff and know it inside and out because if your ultimate goal is flying for an airline, you'll need this (don't bother with Airbus glass because the bus is junk :-) ) But your point about doing what your employer tells you, like how to fly their airplanes. But give the guy a break, he wants to increase his situational awareness NOT his workload.
I know it's not in vogue in our society, but let's agree to disagree.

If he's bumping around in a 152 my guess is there are some basic skills he should have and it sounds like the owner of the plane thinks so too. I guess that what irks me the most; instead of voting with his wallet and not flying that plane, he turned the internet to find justification to not follow the rules that come with the rental.
CRM114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 02:15 AM   #27  
On Reserve
 
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 20
Default

I love all the gee wiz stuff, but when it all fails, and it will, you need to actually think, like how to use a VOR or NDB, old school flying will save you're ass when you're pretty glass cockpit goes dark.
PROFILECLIMB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 08:23 PM   #28  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PROFILECLIMB View Post
I love all the gee wiz stuff, but when it all fails, and it will, you need to actually think, like how to use a VOR or NDB, old school flying will save you're ass when you're pretty glass cockpit goes dark.
I agree 100% on those NDBs... I also saved all my old 8-track tapes too.. never know when that fancy iPod might die on me lol.. I also think it's really cool how the ADF needle goes crazy & becomes useless near any kind of electrical interference or storm...

You know what the celestial navigation old timers used to say to these young kids with their fancy new direction finders right? Exactly.

Folks.. GPS.. WAAS. LAAS. RAIM. This technology is here now and the truth is it is very reliable.

Having said all that my students still learn cross country navigation via Pilotage and Dead Reckoning. But once you are proficient, no reason not to fly with the GPS if you choose to.
lstorm2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 02:52 AM   #29  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: G650 Captain
Posts: 125
Default

I might as well contribute my .02 as well...

Personally, I feel if the school requires this as part of the rental agreement than you should do as asked. If it's only a short flight than it shouldn't take you more than a few minutes and is great practice. "Use it or lose it." If it's a longer flight it still shouldn't take long and may really come in handy at some point.

By all means take your iPad along and use it for a backup and an additional source of information.

Don't become a pilot who can't figure out a holding pattern entry given at the last minute because they can't program the FMS quickly enough or a fuel burn because the GPS isn't telling you. There will be times you need to know how to fly with basic information available to you.

I still fly departures and approaches in the Airbus whenever possible with just the raw data ILS and RMI needles but then I always enjoyed being a pilot and using the skills that I learned whether it was old school or new school.
OceanicPilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 03:29 AM   #30  
Gets three weeks off.
 
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstorm2003 View Post
I agree 100% on those NDBs... I also saved all my old 8-track tapes too.. never know when that fancy iPod might die on me lol.. I also think it's really cool how the ADF needle goes crazy & becomes useless near any kind of electrical interference or storm...

You know what the celestial navigation old timers used to say to these young kids with their fancy new direction finders right? Exactly.

Folks.. GPS.. WAAS. LAAS. RAIM. This technology is here now and the truth is it is very reliable.

Having said all that my students still learn cross country navigation via Pilotage and Dead Reckoning. But once you are proficient, no reason not to fly with the GPS if you choose to.
Yeah until you get to an airport that ONLY has a NDB/DME... But you don't need that ancient stuff do ya?

Or when the DME is on MEL and the FO can't figure out what a "crossing radial" is.

Relying on easy mode all the time because it's always there is not necessarily a recipe for disaster, but it is a recipe for bad airmanship.
aviatorhi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pilot & Flight Test jobs at HondaJet Cubdriver Hiring News 0 02-05-2013 08:00 AM
Rest rules delayed to Nov/22/2011 glyde Major 120 11-11-2011 02:31 PM
Airnet! Longbow64 Part 135 117 07-23-2009 08:46 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:19 PM.


vBulletin® v3.9.3.5, Copyright ©2000-2019, MH Sub I, LLC dba vBulletin
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1