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Old 10-24-2017, 07:04 PM
  #1481  
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
Do you know when people interviewing in November could expect to have their class date? I know they've had delays before.

Best case is January. I believe there are 8 classes scheduled for 2018 so do the
math after that. They will also offer earlier dates if they have fall outs.


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Old 10-24-2017, 07:41 PM
  #1482  
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Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon View Post
Biggest thing is the schedule. I had one day where they wanted me to airline at 5AM (so up and out of bed by 1), land in Boston, get a rental car, drive an hour and a half to Portsmouth, pick up an airplane, pack catering/preflight etc in 20 minutes to fly a 4 leg day with 20 minute turns in a plane with no autopilot or flight director. This was probably the most egregious example but not unusual by any means. Management pilots wouldn't change anything after I called them about the situation. We're constantly set up to be late (I've had 3 minute turns scheduled before), which means we're constantly dealing with angry pax. I've flown 3-4 6-7 leg full duty days in a row, getting minrested every night. I've had them pull crew meals and not eaten from noon until midnight because they ran the schedule too tight to find food on our own. Scheduling will consistently break company policy (NOT the regs) to make the schedule work. They're not a bad company but they're severely understaffed and doing absolutely nothing to improve pilot retention. Only 1/4 of the FO's stick around long enough to upgrade. Captains that were one class away from the jet have left. Jet captains have left. The seniority list got massacred over the time I was there. Like I said, we were down to 44 line captains for the -12, with 35 airplanes. You do the math.

If you're a low time pilot and you're sick of flight instruction, it's a great change of pace and a good way to get some real world flying skills before moving on to bigger and better things. It's not a place to anticipate making a career at.
Most of this is on you. The times are what they are. Run the schedule and to hell with the turn times. People get themselves worked up over the dumbest things. Run the schedule or day your given. If you're late, you're late. That's on the FOC to explain and worry about, not you. You have to act like an adult and get food. You going without is your fault and your captains. Regardless of the turn times, you just do the best you can and be done with it. I also disagree about the retention rates. They are doing what they can and more changes on the horizon. As an F.O. I averaged 3k plus per check with the O.T. and I made nearly 65k first year. First year captain nearly 100k. There are plenty of opportunities as an IP that can add a TREMENDOUS amounts of $$ just as in anything you have to work for what you want in life. 6 days extra a month nets around 5k plus per diem. Add that to the base captain rate plus per diem equals 106 to 108k. Insurance is extremely good. It cost us around $800 to have our child. The main lacking here is the 401k match. Regionals are 6 majors top out depending on years of service around 12 or more depending on carriers. I have 25.2% rate of return on my investments as of the close of market today. I put 20% in per check. I don't do the company 401k. This is a fun job and you can make your day the best or miserable. It teaches you finesse and other things too. You'll be the same one after 4 months at the airlines complaining too. Same 6 airports each week and having to actually fly without the autopilot. Rotate positive rate gear up autopilot on. 100 above autopilot off powr and land. Upgrade in 2 years or 4 years doing the same thing. The odds of flying a heavy is slim to none. There are 20year guys still on the 88 or smaller. Never hold the holidays. I have a good friend with 25 plus at AA that still doesn't have seniority to hold Christmas. In fact this year he just will be able to hold. 24 years. He missed 24 Christmases and thanksgivings with his kids. Never saw them. It's not worth it for me. Travel is ok when you can get on the plane. No Positive space. The bonus is ok until year two you're back making 35 an hr. Yeah 75 guaranteed a month. Do the math. No thanks. Hell with the regionals. Stay here for 3k hours or more and go direct to the majors or atlas. Net jets.

Last edited by JMO127; 10-24-2017 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:46 PM
  #1483  
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Originally Posted by Toonces View Post
If you leave before the contract is up, you pay it back pro-rated. So its like a raise that you volunteer for. Free money.

If you upgrade to the jet, you will not take a pay cut. You will get what a jet pilot is paid minus the bonus. So then you add in the bonus and you get what a jet pilot would have been paid anyway. And before you upgrade, you are getting the bonus as a PC-12 Captain. Like a raise. Free money.


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Thank you. Well said. The same thing I've been saying for a month. FREE MONEY. If you leave you pay prorated or put the second 10k in the bank and pay them back with their money. No different than the non paying 18 month commitment you signed as an f.o.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:48 PM
  #1484  
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Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon View Post
Exactly, only way to legally log the 91 legs.
And the problem is? You'll log sic at the airlines completely whether you fly or not.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:39 PM
  #1485  
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Originally Posted by tctaeg View Post
And the problem is? You'll log sic at the airlines completely whether you fly or not.
The problem is you can't legally log SIC in a single pilot airplane under part 91. I was just pointing out that I always chose to fly the empty legs so I wasn't forging time in my logbook that I couldn't actually log.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:52 PM
  #1486  
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Originally Posted by tctaeg View Post
Most of this is on you. The times are what they are. Run the schedule and to hell with the turn times. People get themselves worked up over the dumbest things. Run the schedule or day your given. If you're late, you're late. That's on the FOC to explain and worry about, not you. You have to act like an adult and get food.
Screw you dude. I'm an adult. You try telling a gung-ho company man captain to ignore the passenger that just walked out to the airplane right when you pulled up that you can't go because you're going to get food. Wait for the call from the office pilot who won't back you up. The captains I've flown with that actually put their foot down get chewed out.
You going without is your fault and your captains. Regardless of the turn times, you just do the best you can and be done with it. I also disagree about the retention rates. They are doing what they can and more changes on the horizon.

What exactly are they doing? When you have captains that have been here 10+ years leaving that isn't a good sign.

As an F.O. I averaged 3k plus per check with the O.T. and I made nearly 65k first year.
You worked 80 days of OT? Good for you. Did you enjoy the 64 days off you got for the entire year? I shouldn't have to work 83% of the year to make a decent wage

First year captain nearly 100k.

Sure, if you work an absolute insane amount of OT. I can do the same thing here within the framework of a contract that doesn't let the company schedulers screw me on a whim. There are plenty of opportunities as an IP that can add a TREMENDOUS amounts of $$ just as in anything you have to work for what you want in life. 6 days extra a month nets around 5k plus per diem.
As a captain. Again, that means you spend SIX ****ING DAYS a month at home. That's not sustainable.

Add that to the base captain rate plus per diem equals 106 to 108k. Insurance is extremely good. It cost us around $800 to have our child. The main lacking here is the 401k match. Regionals are 6

My regional matches 10.

majors top out depending on years of service around 12 or more depending on carriers. I have 25.2% rate of return on my investments as of the close of market today. I put 20% in per check. I don't do the company 401k. This is a fun job and you can make your day the best or miserable. It teaches you finesse and other things too.

The Pilatus doesn't require finesse. The nature of the airframe means you can be extremely sloppy with your descent /approach planning and it still work out great. I've seen plenty of captains salvage things that would've been a go-around in a jet.

You'll be the same one after 4 months at the airlines complaining too.

[B]Look me up in 4 months, if I'm *****ing about where I'm at then that's a fair point. I've had flying jobs before this that I never complained about[\B]

Same 6 airports each week and having to actually fly without the autopilot. Rotate positive rate gear up autopilot on. 100 above autopilot off powr and land.
\_(ツ)_/. Enjoy going to MVY/BED/TEB/ACK 150 times a year. If I want to go have fun I can go putz around in a 150.
Upgrade in 2 years or 4 years doing the same thing. The odds of flying a heavy is slim to none. There are 20year guys still on the 88 or smaller. Never hold the holidays. I have a good friend with 25 plus at AA that still doesn't have seniority to hold Christmas.
With the manadatory retirements that likely won't be a problem for me. The numbers don't lie. I worked every holiday this year at planesense anyway. Multiple friends at regionals got thanksgiving and Christmas off within the first year. It is what you make it. Your friend got unlucky with his timing.
In fact this year he just will be able to hold. 24 years. He missed 24 Christmases and thanksgivings with his kids. Never saw them. It's not worth it for me. Travel is ok when you can get on the plane. No Positive space. The bonus is ok until year two you're back making 35 an hr. Yeah 75 guaranteed a month. Do the math. No thanks. Hell with the regionals. Stay here for 3k hours or more and go direct to the majors or atlas.

Atlas? Dude your ignorance is showing. You're buying into Uncle Ray's anti airline spiel hook line and sinker without doing any real research.

Net jets.

Lol. You ever talk to netjets pilots? If you think I'm whiny you'd kill yourself flying with those guys. At the end of the day a low time pilot wanting to stay corporate could spend god knows how long as a PC-12 captain at planesense in the hopes of moving up to to the jet to then move to XOjet or NetJets. Or they could go to a regional, make good money, get a multi ATP and a type, upgrade to captain, and then move to a major in a year or two or slide back into a nice GulfStream or citation X job.
See bolded replies. At the end of the day it isn't a horrible place to work but it's hardly rainbows and sunshine.

Last edited by DarkSideMoon; 10-24-2017 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:05 PM
  #1487  
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Honestly eveyone in the thread is right in their opinions. Mostly it's just what you make of it. When its bad its really bad. When its good its really good.

The biggest issue is a disconnect between the pilot group and scheduling/ops. Ops has a schedule that needs to be filled. Its their job. Unfortunately, that gives us horrendous days because we're severely understaffed. We are, essentially numbers to them. They see a pilot and they see duty available, meals don't cross their mind.

Which is why, like some have said, you need to put your foot down. That being said, the more senior your captain is, the more pull they have to not get chewed out for putting their foot down.

At the end of the day, what's the worst that can happen? Are they going to fire you for putting your foot down and refusing to do a flight because they havent let you eat in 12 hours? No...and if they did... Good luck to them winning that legal battle...

Ops forgets youre human sometimes, and its EXTREMELY frustrating, but just give them a gentle reminder, and when the gentle reminder doesn't work, give them a little less gentle reminder. But theres no reason to **** off ops, theyre doing their best, and if they still wont work with you, take matters into your own hands. Just go get yourself food or take 10 minutes to breathe between flights. If you're late, let your passengers call Ops. Its not your fault you're human.
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:20 PM
  #1488  
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Originally Posted by AlexBlakeCFI View Post
Honestly eveyone in the thread is right in their opinions. Mostly it's just what you make of it. When its bad its really bad. When its good its really good.

The biggest issue is a disconnect between the pilot group and scheduling/ops. Ops has a schedule that needs to be filled. Its their job. Unfortunately, that gives us horrendous days because we're severely understaffed. We are, essentially numbers to them. They see a pilot and they see duty available, meals don't cross their mind.

Which is why, like some have said, you need to put your foot down. That being said, the more senior your captain is, the more pull they have to not get chewed out for putting their foot down.

At the end of the day, what's the worst that can happen? Are they going to fire you for putting your foot down and refusing to do a flight because they havent let you eat in 12 hours? No...and if they did... Good luck to them winning that legal battle...

Ops forgets youre human sometimes, and its EXTREMELY frustrating, but just give them a gentle reminder, and when the gentle reminder doesn't work, give them a little less gentle reminder. But theres no reason to **** off ops, theyre doing their best, and if they still wont work with you, take matters into your own hands. Just go get yourself food or take 10 minutes to breathe between flights. If you're late, let your passengers call Ops. Its not your fault you're human.
Well said sir.
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:02 PM
  #1489  
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Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon View Post
If you leave before the contract is up you have to repay the bonus. If you upgrade to the jet you're on a reduced pay scale until the contract runs out. That's not free money.
Your understanding of the contract is flawed. But that's okay, you don't work here anymore so you don't have to worry about it.
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:07 PM
  #1490  
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Originally Posted by Docflyer View Post
Your understanding of the contract is flawed. But that's okay, you don't work here anymore so you don't have to worry about it.
How is it wrong? You don't get full jet pay until the contract runs out, they keep you gimped, you're not making full jet pay on top of the 10K. You have to repay a prorated portion of the contract if you leave. The whole thing reeks of desperation. They had *44* line PC-12 captains when I left for 35 airplanes. That is unsustainably bad. Over half my 11 person class left before their contracts were up. That's a sign something is fundamentally wrong.

Care to post the details for the help of those who are thinking about going rather than just looking down on the people who left?

Last edited by DarkSideMoon; 10-25-2017 at 07:27 PM.
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