Nicholas Air
01-05-2017, 06:22 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Ifly4u2c
What you mean is depends on the airplane ( in this case Phenoms ) and the OPS of the company you are flying for. If the company requires 2 pilots, you can log SIC, If only requires one pilot, that pilot has to be SINGLE PILOT qualified AND the airplane needs to have a working A/P, etc...
Last time I went for my recurrent, there was only one flight department in the US, that was doing single pilot 135 ops. So unless you belong to that particular company, or you fly for a 91 owner, you most likely can log the SIC time on the phenom.
Last time I went for my recurrent, there was only one flight department in the US, that was doing single pilot 135 ops. So unless you belong to that particular company, or you fly for a 91 owner, you most likely can log the SIC time on the phenom.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
As far as the original question goes though, the true SICs that Nicholas Air hires are not type rated in the Phenoms. All of the CAs at NA are single pilot certified. While many of the flights are conducted with two type rated pilots, their 135 OP Specs do not require two pilots. The only time a second pilot could log SIC time there is with an inop auto pilot. And they would have to have a type rating or 61.55 sign off or SIC type rating to log that time as SIC.
01-05-2017, 06:33 PM
#62
Always on vacation
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: CFII/MEI
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by piloto2
I believe you are incorrect on your understanding of SIC logging. The linked letter explains why. According to the FAA, it does not matter whether the company requires a second pilot or not.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
As far as the original question goes though, the true SICs that Nicholas Air hires are not type rated in the Phenoms. All of the CAs at NA are single pilot certified. While many of the flights are conducted with two type rated pilots, their 135 OP Specs do not require two pilots. The only time a second pilot could log SIC time there is with an inop auto pilot. And they would have to have a type rating or 61.55 sign off or SIC type rating to log that time as SIC.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
As far as the original question goes though, the true SICs that Nicholas Air hires are not type rated in the Phenoms. All of the CAs at NA are single pilot certified. While many of the flights are conducted with two type rated pilots, their 135 OP Specs do not require two pilots. The only time a second pilot could log SIC time there is with an inop auto pilot. And they would have to have a type rating or 61.55 sign off or SIC type rating to log that time as SIC.
If NA, is set up the way you explained, well that is a NO GO place, for anyone under 3000 hours, because if you can be a Captain by the time you get in, you wont be moving anywhere close to CA TT mins there.
01-05-2017, 08:53 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Ifly4u2c
Well if the SIC's are not rated, yes you are right, they CANNOT log the time, if the PIC is Single Pilot. If the PIC is single pilot and the SIC is typed on the airplane as SIC or PIC, an per OPS you need a SIC you can log SIC time.
If NA, is set up the way you explained, well that is a NO GO place, for anyone under 3000 hours, because if you can be a Captain by the time you get in, you wont be moving anywhere close to CA TT mins there.
If NA, is set up the way you explained, well that is a NO GO place, for anyone under 3000 hours, because if you can be a Captain by the time you get in, you wont be moving anywhere close to CA TT mins there.
"Under sections 135.1 01 and 135.105, two pilots are required when carrying passengers under IFR unless an operative and approved autopilot system is installed, in which case one pilot is required. Although section 135.105 allows single-pilot operations with the use of an operative approved autopilot system, it does not require that all future flights be conducted in that manner. See Tarsa Interpretation (Mar. 26, 1992). In other words, the operator can elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots, with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot designated as SIC may log SIC flight time. If the autopilot system is used, then the pilot designated as SIC is not a required flight crewmember and may not log SIC time."
Here is the link to the full letter:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
01-06-2017, 08:24 AM
#65
Always on vacation
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: CFII/MEI
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by piloto2
In addition to the first link I posted, you need to read the Nichols letter from the FAA. I'll post a link below, but the salient part says that under part 135, even if your company says two pilots are required, and the autopilot is used in a single pilot certified jet, that the SIC can NOT log SIC time.
"Under sections 135.1 01 and 135.105, two pilots are required when carrying passengers under IFR unless an operative and approved autopilot system is installed, in which case one pilot is required. Although section 135.105 allows single-pilot operations with the use of an operative approved autopilot system, it does not require that all future flights be conducted in that manner. See Tarsa Interpretation (Mar. 26, 1992). In other words, the operator can elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots, with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot designated as SIC may log SIC flight time. If the autopilot system is used, then the pilot designated as SIC is not a required flight crewmember and may not log SIC time."
Here is the link to the full letter:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
"Under sections 135.1 01 and 135.105, two pilots are required when carrying passengers under IFR unless an operative and approved autopilot system is installed, in which case one pilot is required. Although section 135.105 allows single-pilot operations with the use of an operative approved autopilot system, it does not require that all future flights be conducted in that manner. See Tarsa Interpretation (Mar. 26, 1992). In other words, the operator can elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots, with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot designated as SIC may log SIC flight time. If the autopilot system is used, then the pilot designated as SIC is not a required flight crewmember and may not log SIC time."
Here is the link to the full letter:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
The certificate holder can either say yes, I want just one pilot operations, or NO i want 2 pilots. So it all comes down to the specific certificate holder you fly for. So it has to do with the airplane and certificate holder preferences, regarding logging SIC or not. So it is a case by case scenario, when it comes to logging SIC time. The autopilot can be operational and you still log SIC time, bc no one will know if you operated with the autopilot on or off.
Another issue is the 135 "on-demand", which requires 2 pilots...135.4 (a) 1
01-06-2017, 08:38 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Ifly4u2c
this is all somehow a grey area of the regs...
The certificate holder can either say yes, I want just one pilot operations, or NO i want 2 pilots. So it all comes down to the specific certificate holder you fly for. So it has to do with the airplane and certificate holder preferences, regarding logging SIC or not. So it is a case by case scenario, when it comes to logging SIC time. The autopilot can be operational and you still log SIC time, bc no one will know if you operated with the autopilot on or off.
Another issue is the 135 "on-demand", which requires 2 pilots...135.4 (a) 1
The certificate holder can either say yes, I want just one pilot operations, or NO i want 2 pilots. So it all comes down to the specific certificate holder you fly for. So it has to do with the airplane and certificate holder preferences, regarding logging SIC or not. So it is a case by case scenario, when it comes to logging SIC time. The autopilot can be operational and you still log SIC time, bc no one will know if you operated with the autopilot on or off.
Another issue is the 135 "on-demand", which requires 2 pilots...135.4 (a) 1
In the end, it's your logbook, log whatver you want. But I can tell you from experience that any reputable company is going to catch logging SIC time in a single pilot jet and discount that time at the very least.
01-06-2017, 09:06 AM
#67
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 2
I respectfully disagree piloto2. If this company is a "on demand" operator and they are approved in their op-specs the SIC can log time. Can someone please PM me if you work for the company or know someone who does? They are hiring per climbto350 and I am looking for a job. I would like to know a little more.
01-06-2017, 12:17 PM
#68
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: Phenom
Posts: 82
Situations are different for the 100 vs 300's flown at NA as well. Nearly all 135 flights in our 300s require 2 pilots. We have no SIC typed only pilots in the 300. Pretty much all are single pilot typed and we did have 1 that had a PIC w/SIC restriction until recently.
01-06-2017, 03:13 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by BuddhaPilot73
Situations are different for the 100 vs 300's flown at NA as well. Nearly all 135 flights in our 300s require 2 pilots. We have no SIC typed only pilots in the 300. Pretty much all are single pilot typed and we did have 1 that had a PIC w/SIC restriction until recently.
That said, even though most of NA's flight are conducted with two captains, there are still some guys that are only SICs, with no type ratings at all. I believe those guys are what the earlier poster was questioning since that is what NA is advertising for at the moment. They can't log any SIC time at all, because they are not required crew members.
01-06-2017, 04:19 PM
#70
Always on vacation
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: CFII/MEI
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by piloto2
Is the two pilot requirement in the 300 a company requirement? If so, and the PIC is type rated as a single pilot w/no SIC restriction, then the time in the right seat can't be logged as SIC.
That said, even though most of NA's flight are conducted with two captains, there are still some guys that are only SICs, with no type ratings at all. I believe those guys are what the earlier poster was questioning since that is what NA is advertising for at the moment. They can't log any SIC time at all, because they are not required crew members.
That said, even though most of NA's flight are conducted with two captains, there are still some guys that are only SICs, with no type ratings at all. I believe those guys are what the earlier poster was questioning since that is what NA is advertising for at the moment. They can't log any SIC time at all, because they are not required crew members.
I know what i am talking about bc i was an typed SIC emb-505 for a 91/135 gig, and both CAE and my employer told me and explained to me why I could log my time.
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