I’ll disagree on lots of bad decisions. Some yes but lots? No. I’ve seen MM hammer company witnesses (so called industry experts with the resume to prove it) as the union side arbitrator in arbitration. He had questions for them I hadn’t thought of and made some look foolish. He was definitely prepared. It’s going to be a loss for sure.
I get it you wouldn’t know any of that because after arbitration all that’s really published is a summary of the judgment.

 

I'm sure he's not the only one.

You and I have gone back and forth about quite a few things but on this we both agree. Union work is hard work. There are tons on here badmouthing and complaining about FPL, etc. w/o a clue of the behind the scenes work. And I'm sure you have more of an idea than most.

While all that effort is great, it can be lessened by just a few bad decisions....

 

Fair enough. I actually got you to come down from lots to a few. Lol.

 

LOL - I'll go with some now. But they were pretty big...

 

I 100% agree with this assessment. There seem to be a lot of people who post here who really like MM. Yet There are zero people who can name any accomplishments MM has brought about. I also understand that this is how we got MM in the first place.

I don't hate MM. Nor did I want him to unsuccessful as the MEC. However if we set aside who we like personally and objectively look at the performance MM has not been good. He is not good at the job. Meetings, communications, airport sits, the fractured Union, Status meeting, the Bus, pressuring the company, the 70,000$ loss for the meeting in Virginia because two LECs couldn't be bothered to show up. Don't get me started about the "family awareness events" This is currently not a well run Union. I am 100% in on high turnover on our leadership until we find someone who is effective.

The weak state of our Union IS part of the reason so many pilots are leaving. The fundamental belief that nothing will change. These pilots are not wrong. There is no Unity ,Cohesion ,or Direction. Last time I check the current ALPA Lanyard says "Ready to Strike" not "Don't bother negotiating because the company is not making any money"

It's long past time for some new blood at the F9 ALPA leadership. Personally I want people from outside of Denver in those positions. It's become to much an old boys club, which is fine if the performance is there, but the performance is not there. Course Corrections need to made.

There is a lot of things that could put pressure on the company where they would see value in a new CBA for the Pilot group that fall short of any RLA action. It doesn't take much imagination. I want an MEC that is going to find that line and have us all stand on the edge of it Until we can "develop an appetite for further collaboration."

 

some of this I can agree with but high turnover? Aside from the wasting time it’s not a recipe for getting any decent leadership if they’re looking over shoulders constantly. No thanks.
How about come up with some quality names (see if there’s some interest) and reach out to lec reps since they are the ones voting on new leadership. Get it right the first time. Openclimb might be very well correct but it hasn’t happened yet.

 

So, in order to correctly place blame, we need to go WAY back and give credit/blame where it's due.

1). The union is mostly the contract. Yeah, there are other things that the union does certainly but 90% of what everyone cares about it pay, QoL, sick leave, vacation, medical costs, etc. Honestly, this is how it is at just about every company. Our contract ask last go around was ****ed. WE ASKED TO BE AT THE BOTTOM while at the END OF THE CYCLE. It was doomed from the start. There's NO PERSON who could've become MEC that could be successful given woes the contract has in it. MM was doomed to fail from the start. And, it's not the weak state of the union that is forcing people to bail, it's the weak state of the contract.

2). Our contract ask THIS go around is also ****ed. Mind you, it is this way because the last go around set the precedent for losing. There are too many of us that are willing to accept being at the bottom for the illusion of other benefits that aren't that great, don't really exist or a manipulated easily by actions of the company. We are a weak union because we are a weak pilot force. MM maybe should've tried different ways to increase unity but all the strike busses and billboards and sit ins and whatever in the world shouldn't have anything to do with my or your acceptance of any rate less than the current. The recent rumor going around of Delta (minus) is proof. We shouln't be considering ANYthing minus - only plus. MM made some bad decisions, but I don't blame him totally - we all voted the POS contract in. Our next MEC, whomever is chosen, will probably have even less success than MM.

3). What is needed is a reset. A full blown, all out desperate measure to fix ALL of the problems now. Most pilots think this can't be done or that the company would fail prior to that happening. I agree. I think this company SHOULD fail - it's built on a premise of needing to pay its workers less. That is faulty. The only way to force the company to restructure its business model, to rethink its process, to GET BETTER is to force it via a grassroots movement from labor. And who better than the pilots. We need to see if we will be allowed to strike. Ask any labor union, any pro athlete or any upper management worker - you are worth what you negotiate for. I GUARANTEE you Dempsey negotiated his salary to be above what Barry was making.

The industry has done us a huge favor. The rates are known (and fairly fixed). 401k%s are known/fixed. Vacation accrual, sick/PTO days, perdiem are all basically the same. All we need to do is follow suit. In fact, there's really not that much to negotiate - here are the industry terms. Take it or leave it. If you leave it, we strike. It's that simple.

New lanyard phrase - "Accept our terms or we strike."

 

Your talking in circles. The weak Union lead to a weak contract which lead to a weaker Union and lower prospects for a contract.

The word framing comes to mind. It's a way to coerce people into a specific mind set by forcing them to see certain facts from a perspective that follows a popular narrative.
The difference between Alex Jones, FOX and NBC news is rarely the facts. It's almost always the framing.

To look at our current state from a different perspective I could say " We have given Frontier Management an enormous amount of breathing room since the Last CBA. We have subsidized this airline with low cost labor for long enough. Now it is time for a full Industry Standard contract" - Done

TBH I am kind of done with the whole get released from the contract, self help, possible strike path. I was never really on board with it, I held my tongue for a long time, but Thus far all I have seen is " be a good boy, give management everything they want right away ,don't kick up a fuss ,and eventually some government bureaucrat will give you a blessing to ransom the company for your demands." If I saw other airlines doing it successfully I might think differently. Where we are at the best practice is to look at other airlines and see what worked. I have not herd anything about any other airlines being released. Many other airline have inked new CBA's the question is how did they do it?

I don't agree with you on the Pilot force either. We have a great pilot group. Many people who come from different walks of life. It has been exceedingly rare that I find the people I fly with unimpressive. What we lack is leadership. Part of that has been the "get released path" which does not leave much to do for the average line pilot. I would like to see monthly meetings in every base. This way we can all be on the same page, float ideas, and relay the information to Pilots who couldn't be there.

The young guns leaving Yeah they were going to do that given the opportunity. The 5-10+ year Captains, Chief Pilots, and Union reps Leaving. That is low confidence in our ability to negotiate. (is MM going to UA?)

 

Actually, this makes me think...

Can the new MEC go to Dempsey, ask for 30 days to come up w/ a plan, then go to the NC w/ a whole new ask?

 

so you admit. You just start typing and hit post without thinking. It’s starting to make sense.