Sounds like you should get involved and draw a red line in the sand. You’re basically a major reason why nobody who knows what they’re doing wants to get involved now. You and res captain. It’s tough enough dealing with management. Just remember emotional arguments don’t work.

 

If they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have to deal w/ me, res captain or anyone else complaining...

You've long be a union worker and defender. I respect that. Truly I do. But, those points you win for doing so kinda fade when the output is subpar. You don't get points for sucking - especially when you defend it.

Believe it or not, I'm not one of those who would complain just to be complaining. But our current situation requires it. Complaints are how improvements get made. And you of all people can't argue w/ that. We all recognize that we're behind. We just don't agree on how much OR the way to get ahead. Shoot, you and I are arguing that getting up to EVEN is even possible.

 

right only you and res captain know how it’s done. Are we living in reality right now?

 

Maybe neither of us know (maybe we do). At least I’m not willing to settle for the bottom of the pile.

The only thing we definitively know for certain is your way leads to where we are now.

 

Your way leads us to where we are for longer. Much longer because you’re not doing anything to shorten that time and actually advocating crazy to extend the timeframe.

 

Perhaps it will. Of course, no one wants to wait a second longer than necessary but you don’t think attrition won’t increase the longer it takes? Don’t you think eventually the other airlines contracts get reworked (justifying our cause)? Don’t you think that at the end of it all, maybe we’ll be where all the other pilot groups are? The WHOLE point is to catch up. ALL the way. Maybe then we can recruit AND retain. Maybe this’ll be a destination airline. Maybe pilots from other airlines will want to leave there and come here. Crazy right (although it used to be the case for this airline long ago).

Or maybe res capn and me have no idea about the process, are completely oblivious, should run for NC tomorrow, blah, blah, blah. Anything not to answer the questions…

 

I will admit all of your points is the reason I left. Between the union having so much disfunction and the infighting, the company being well the company. I just couldn’t take it anymore.

I respect every pilot in this group and I do miss the people I flew with but at what cost? I’m not a grass is greener person never have been, more of an enjoy the moment that you’re in. There is a distinct difference with how you are treated at a legacy carrier though. To the point of questioning myself of why I didn’t do this years ago.

I hope that you guys get someone with the ability to fight for EVERY single thing you need and deserve. The idea of we are different so we can’t have or get XYZ is such BS. The market has spoken the rates are the rates and the facade of well we have work rules isn’t as true as some may suggest. Our jobs are to fly from point A to point B, not to decide what makes money or the business model. Now’s the time to really come together unified and educate the guys who may be looking to leave eventually and talk about the importance of not selling the ENTIRE pilot group short for a quick gain that is lacking in every area. Explaining to them how it hurts whatever airline they go to in the future and those negotiations.

i wish you all the best outcome possible, this is different from last time. The company has plugged holes that caused the last contract to progress forward. A high tide raises ALL boats, don’t settle.

 

How long should we not settle for? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 more years?

 

I don't consider getting released to be the Ace you seem to think it is. Far as I understand no other group has gotten released, given our track record it is foolish to think we will succeed where other have failed. The company obviously does not fear us being released. That should be a big red flag. We have been walking down this road for a long time yet we are no closer to where we want to be , and the company certainly does not seem to be coming around because why would they. they get nearly everything they want from us with little effort and cost.

Until recently I was willing to wait it out. We called for a status meeting, then government shut down now nothing. No follow up no continuation no picking up where we left off. Some times I think the company was waiting for the status meeting just to swap out BB to throw a monkey wrench in the works. Here we are months later and the last memo from the company I read stated the company goals were essentially unchanged from what they have been in the past.

We work for a company who's plan moving forward is based on our Low wages and aggressive cost cutting. We need an MEC who will tell them " we have given you years of breathing room with our low wages. That is Over we expect wages and work rules to be in the ball park of other major airlines."

The best practice would be to look at other airlines who have inked contracts and see how they did it. (no one has gotten released that I know of)

I am all for negotiation. hell at this point I would take a small raise with a 5-7% increase year over year in perpetuity up to Legacy snap ups with some work rule improvements.

The problem is an overall lack of pressure on the company. They fighting tooth and nail to keep the status quo, and the simple truth is Frontier can continue running the way it is So long as the rates are low. There is no "Appetit for farther collaboration" Because we are not the squeaky wheel that needs to be fixed.

I advocate high turnover in leadership because likely we get another MM type. Nothing gets done for years, and a decent amount of leverage evaporates. Then here we are watching our Union hock a LOA for a raise and saying things like. "There is no point in negotiating the company is not making any money" Then we start this process all over again from where we are standing now which is not far from where we started. If we get a guy who is pulling Great. The way things have been working around here I am not optimistic that will happen

 

Personally, I am willing to wait to see everyone's new asks for their contracts and work off that now. I am not even thinking of their CURRENT contracts they got in 2022. Its 2026, almost 2027.

Get retro. make up for it a little bit. But why suffer with another 8 years of a lesser contract?

Its clear the company is fine paying us. Look at all the premium they will throw in for double or more of the credit. Oh wait... we dont see it much because people scramble for scraps of 0 or 1hr incentive, including union members who are on 4-5 days of company paid FPL.

I am by no means against people picking up premium or union volunteers picking up stuff, but when its clear that you are so desperate for premium, that you will pick up 1hr inc , its hilariously tone deaf. Especially when you upgrade to CA, keep getting your FPL to negate commuting as much to SJU, just to get more premiums in other bases.