How long for a contract?
06-06-2025 | 12:05 PM
#1641
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,986
Likes: 112
From: Lineholder
The one thing about our current state of affairs that I just don't see any solution to is our place in the contract cycle.
I can see how a lot of issues can be negotiated to a level of reasonable satisfaction but our place in the cycle is tough.
A "snap up" or "market rate adjustment" would be a fantastic accomplishment but it still doesn't fix the fact that we are hopelessly far behind in the cycle. The only way the company would agree to any snap up or market adjustment would be too a peer group that none of us want to be tied to. Think Allegiant/ Avelo. No way is Frontier agreeing to being on the hook for pay rates associated with the next round of legacy contracts. They just won't go for it.
I do fear that between the business model and our place in the cycle we are forever destined to be at the back. I just don't see a way out. We can't wait for Delta or Alaska to secure their next deal, that's just too far away. And Frontier isn't going to agree to a very short deal either. They obviously want a 5 year deal, where the best case is a 4 year deal but either way we are in a bad spot.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm by no means doom and gloom. I expect and trust that Alpa will deliver is a good contract with solid gains. The next contract we have will legitimately be a career contract and everyone will be able to build wealth and retire with ton of money in their 401k but I don't see any way that we get on par with the legacies. It's a rough combination of where we are now, who we are and when everyone else is negotiating.
There's so many parts to a good contract and so many different priorities I'm not sure where a snap up or market rate adjustment fits in? If we could get language that says we snap up to Delta - 5%, I'd be willing to give something up for that, but if the language is we get a one time snap up to an average of the companies view of our peer group, I don't think I'm willing to put much weight there! I'm not giving up anything to have language tieing us to Allegiant and Avelo.
I can see how a lot of issues can be negotiated to a level of reasonable satisfaction but our place in the cycle is tough.
A "snap up" or "market rate adjustment" would be a fantastic accomplishment but it still doesn't fix the fact that we are hopelessly far behind in the cycle. The only way the company would agree to any snap up or market adjustment would be too a peer group that none of us want to be tied to. Think Allegiant/ Avelo. No way is Frontier agreeing to being on the hook for pay rates associated with the next round of legacy contracts. They just won't go for it.
I do fear that between the business model and our place in the cycle we are forever destined to be at the back. I just don't see a way out. We can't wait for Delta or Alaska to secure their next deal, that's just too far away. And Frontier isn't going to agree to a very short deal either. They obviously want a 5 year deal, where the best case is a 4 year deal but either way we are in a bad spot.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm by no means doom and gloom. I expect and trust that Alpa will deliver is a good contract with solid gains. The next contract we have will legitimately be a career contract and everyone will be able to build wealth and retire with ton of money in their 401k but I don't see any way that we get on par with the legacies. It's a rough combination of where we are now, who we are and when everyone else is negotiating.
There's so many parts to a good contract and so many different priorities I'm not sure where a snap up or market rate adjustment fits in? If we could get language that says we snap up to Delta - 5%, I'd be willing to give something up for that, but if the language is we get a one time snap up to an average of the companies view of our peer group, I don't think I'm willing to put much weight there! I'm not giving up anything to have language tieing us to Allegiant and Avelo.
06-06-2025 | 12:10 PM
#1642
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,986
Likes: 112
From: Lineholder
Here is some net margin history of F9. You tell us where a 35% increase in pay comes from.
12/2020: -18%
3/2021: -25.79%
6/2021: -18.83%
9/2021: -10.36%
12/2021: -4.95%
3/2022: -5.51%
6/2022: -4.98%
9/2022: -4.26%
12/2022: -1.11%
3/2023: +1.99%
6/2023: +3.50%
9/2023: +1.80%
12/2023: -.31%
3/2024: -.67%
6/2024: -1.72%
9/2024: -.11%
12/2024: +2.23%
3/2025: +1.75%
12/2020: -18%
3/2021: -25.79%
6/2021: -18.83%
9/2021: -10.36%
12/2021: -4.95%
3/2022: -5.51%
6/2022: -4.98%
9/2022: -4.26%
12/2022: -1.11%
3/2023: +1.99%
6/2023: +3.50%
9/2023: +1.80%
12/2023: -.31%
3/2024: -.67%
6/2024: -1.72%
9/2024: -.11%
12/2024: +2.23%
3/2025: +1.75%
Second, the company picks the model they follow. They could decide to do anything they want - better customer service, all first class seats, better food options, etc. Anything they desire can be accomplished - it may take time but how else do you think legacy got to the way they are? Some through consolidation, some through better management and most through investment into the product. Being a ULCC is management's choice - not mine or yours. There were many pilots here before Franke/Indigo came along. And the ULCC model has many variations - Southwest was once one of them.
I don’t understand why anyone here thinks we deserve a snap up to legacy rates, sure we do the same job with less resources than them but at the end of the day they make so much more money than us. We are a ULCC I’d expect a snap up to other ULCCs hopefully with this transitional phase we are going into we can be lumped into the LCC market and that would be a huge win for us.
Making money as a company is an individual company thing. Legacies don't always make money and MANY have folded along the way.
A 50% increase in pilot pay could come as easily as charging (about $10) more for tickets. Yes, you would sell less (in the short term) but that, with an increased commitment to customer service, would pay for itself eventually. Frontier could be the best airline in the US or it could be the worst. It's a competition.
UA CEO said it himself - pilot pay is a pass through, you pass the costs onto the customer.
06-06-2025 | 12:17 PM
#1643
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
I don’t understand why anyone here thinks we deserve a snap up to legacy rates, sure we do the same job with less resources than them but at the end of the day they make so much more money than us. We are a ULCC I’d expect a snap up to other ULCCs hopefully with this transitional phase we are going into we can be lumped into the LCC market and that would be a huge win for us.
06-06-2025 | 02:33 PM
#1644
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,764
Likes: 115
From: 1900D CA
I think that with any administration, it's unlikely to be allowed to actually strike. With Trump, i think it's even less likely.
That being said, the threat of a strike might be enough. Just getting to a 30 day cooling off period should net a deal if we even get that far.
06-06-2025 | 03:49 PM
#1645
FO For Life
Joined: Jan 2024
Posts: 327
Likes: 0
Ok, first of all. Don't "believe" the profit quotes from the company. A lot of it is smoke and mirrors to show stock holders that they don''t make money. There are many possible reasons for doing so - insert your favorite now.
Second, the company picks the model they follow. They could decide to do anything they want - better customer service, all first class seats, better food options, etc. Anything they desire can be accomplished - it may take time but how else do you think legacy got to the way they are? Some through consolidation, some through better management and most through investment into the product. Being a ULCC is management's choice - not mine or yours. There were many pilots here before Franke/Indigo came along. And the ULCC model has many variations - Southwest was once one of them.
Third, I will never ever understand any human being who works somewhere, does the exact same thing as someone else but selectively decides they are worth less. This is sad.
Making money as a company is an individual company thing. Legacies don't always make money and MANY have folded along the way.
A 50% increase in pilot pay could come as easily as charging (about $10) more for tickets. Yes, you would sell less (in the short term) but that, with an increased commitment to customer service, would pay for itself eventually. Frontier could be the best airline in the US or it could be the worst. It's a competition.
UA CEO said it himself - pilot pay is a pass through, you pass the costs onto the customer.
Second, the company picks the model they follow. They could decide to do anything they want - better customer service, all first class seats, better food options, etc. Anything they desire can be accomplished - it may take time but how else do you think legacy got to the way they are? Some through consolidation, some through better management and most through investment into the product. Being a ULCC is management's choice - not mine or yours. There were many pilots here before Franke/Indigo came along. And the ULCC model has many variations - Southwest was once one of them.
Third, I will never ever understand any human being who works somewhere, does the exact same thing as someone else but selectively decides they are worth less. This is sad.
Making money as a company is an individual company thing. Legacies don't always make money and MANY have folded along the way.
A 50% increase in pilot pay could come as easily as charging (about $10) more for tickets. Yes, you would sell less (in the short term) but that, with an increased commitment to customer service, would pay for itself eventually. Frontier could be the best airline in the US or it could be the worst. It's a competition.
UA CEO said it himself - pilot pay is a pass through, you pass the costs onto the customer.
Indigo is another story, but they are privately held.
I hear your point about F9 chose to be a ULCC, but name a ULCC that has pay rate parity with a legacy. There is none. This idea that F9 just has to write bigger paychecks and the problem is solved is really absurd.
The F9 pilot group is not asking for pay parity. Whether they realize it or not, they are telling the company to change business models, sell or close your doors. Barry and Franke like the business model right where it is and legacy pay would lay a serious hurtin’ on F9. They won’t do it. They really won’t.
The only way you will get pay parity is if Barry and Indigo are no longer in the picture and whomever is at the helm wants to completely retool Frontier.
06-06-2025 | 03:53 PM
#1646
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 398
Likes: 31
The one thing about our current state of affairs that I just don't see any solution to is our place in the contract cycle.
I can see how a lot of issues can be negotiated to a level of reasonable satisfaction but our place in the cycle is tough.
A "snap up" or "market rate adjustment" would be a fantastic accomplishment but it still doesn't fix the fact that we are hopelessly far behind in the cycle. The only way the company would agree to any snap up or market adjustment would be too a peer group that none of us want to be tied to. Think Allegiant/ Avelo. No way is Frontier agreeing to being on the hook for pay rates associated with the next round of legacy contracts. They just won't go for it.
I do fear that between the business model and our place in the cycle we are forever destined to be at the back. I just don't see a way out. We can't wait for Delta or Alaska to secure their next deal, that's just too far away. And Frontier isn't going to agree to a very short deal either. They obviously want a 5 year deal, where the best case is a 4 year deal but either way we are in a bad spot.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm by no means doom and gloom. I expect and trust that Alpa will deliver is a good contract with solid gains. The next contract we have will legitimately be a career contract and everyone will be able to build wealth and retire with ton of money in their 401k but I don't see any way that we get on par with the legacies. It's a rough combination of where we are now, who we are and when everyone else is negotiating.
There's so many parts to a good contract and so many different priorities I'm not sure where a snap up or market rate adjustment fits in? If we could get language that says we snap up to Delta - 5%, I'd be willing to give something up for that, but if the language is we get a one time snap up to an average of the companies view of our peer group, I don't think I'm willing to put much weight there! I'm not giving up anything to have language tieing us to Allegiant and Avelo.
I can see how a lot of issues can be negotiated to a level of reasonable satisfaction but our place in the cycle is tough.
A "snap up" or "market rate adjustment" would be a fantastic accomplishment but it still doesn't fix the fact that we are hopelessly far behind in the cycle. The only way the company would agree to any snap up or market adjustment would be too a peer group that none of us want to be tied to. Think Allegiant/ Avelo. No way is Frontier agreeing to being on the hook for pay rates associated with the next round of legacy contracts. They just won't go for it.
I do fear that between the business model and our place in the cycle we are forever destined to be at the back. I just don't see a way out. We can't wait for Delta or Alaska to secure their next deal, that's just too far away. And Frontier isn't going to agree to a very short deal either. They obviously want a 5 year deal, where the best case is a 4 year deal but either way we are in a bad spot.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm by no means doom and gloom. I expect and trust that Alpa will deliver is a good contract with solid gains. The next contract we have will legitimately be a career contract and everyone will be able to build wealth and retire with ton of money in their 401k but I don't see any way that we get on par with the legacies. It's a rough combination of where we are now, who we are and when everyone else is negotiating.
There's so many parts to a good contract and so many different priorities I'm not sure where a snap up or market rate adjustment fits in? If we could get language that says we snap up to Delta - 5%, I'd be willing to give something up for that, but if the language is we get a one time snap up to an average of the companies view of our peer group, I don't think I'm willing to put much weight there! I'm not giving up anything to have language tieing us to Allegiant and Avelo.
if you want legacy rates go to a legacy yesterday.. I don't know that we are going to win legacy rates here, the RLA is firmly stacked against us without the leverage of a strike. The QoL aspect is real, we should not only retain what we have but build on it. Otherwise keep fighting the fight and hope we can close the gap but I really don't see it.
06-06-2025 | 03:57 PM
#1647
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 398
Likes: 31
Here is some net margin history of F9. You tell us where a 35% increase in pay comes from.
12/2020: -18%
3/2021: -25.79%
6/2021: -18.83%
9/2021: -10.36%
12/2021: -4.95%
3/2022: -5.51%
6/2022: -4.98%
9/2022: -4.26%
12/2022: -1.11%
3/2023: +1.99%
6/2023: +3.50%
9/2023: +1.80%
12/2023: -.31%
3/2024: -.67%
6/2024: -1.72%
9/2024: -.11%
12/2024: +2.23%
3/2025: +1.75%
12/2020: -18%
3/2021: -25.79%
6/2021: -18.83%
9/2021: -10.36%
12/2021: -4.95%
3/2022: -5.51%
6/2022: -4.98%
9/2022: -4.26%
12/2022: -1.11%
3/2023: +1.99%
6/2023: +3.50%
9/2023: +1.80%
12/2023: -.31%
3/2024: -.67%
6/2024: -1.72%
9/2024: -.11%
12/2024: +2.23%
3/2025: +1.75%
Second, I would say a recently terminated employee probably isn't the most objective when speaking of their former company. How about you let F9 pilots talk about our negotiations.. no offense but it's clear from your post history that you hold a grudge against f9.
06-06-2025 | 04:04 PM
#1648
FO For Life
Joined: Jan 2024
Posts: 327
Likes: 0
First off: F9's performance - like most airlines - was bad after COVID, and the ULCC model has been struggling to pivot and find its footing post-COVID.
Second, I would say a recently terminated employee probably isn't the most objective when speaking of their former company. How about you let F9 pilots talk about our negotiations.. no offense but it's clear from your post history that you hold a grudge against f9.
Second, I would say a recently terminated employee probably isn't the most objective when speaking of their former company. How about you let F9 pilots talk about our negotiations.. no offense but it's clear from your post history that you hold a grudge against f9.
06-06-2025 | 04:46 PM
#1649
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 59
Likes: 7
06-06-2025 | 04:54 PM
#1650
Almost there
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 144
All this talk about pilot pay and giving in already. Many on this site need to go read some history books.
Flying the Line and Hard Landings are good starting points. They talk about the struggles of early airline pilots and their pay. How some managers were more ruthless in cutting costs (or jobs) than others. Pay disparities are a fight that we have been fighting since the beginning. Part of ALPAs founding idea was that, “all airline pilots receive the same pay for flying similar routes and equipment, regardless of which airline he worked for….there should be no second class citizens in the rank of airline pilots.” Yet some on here are advocating for just that. Shame.
BB is no Cord, Lorenzo, or Ichan. Frontier may chose to be a second class airline but I’m not a second class pilot. Stand up for yourselves. Have the courage stand in unity. Only our unity will get us the contract we deserve.
Flying the Line and Hard Landings are good starting points. They talk about the struggles of early airline pilots and their pay. How some managers were more ruthless in cutting costs (or jobs) than others. Pay disparities are a fight that we have been fighting since the beginning. Part of ALPAs founding idea was that, “all airline pilots receive the same pay for flying similar routes and equipment, regardless of which airline he worked for….there should be no second class citizens in the rank of airline pilots.” Yet some on here are advocating for just that. Shame.
BB is no Cord, Lorenzo, or Ichan. Frontier may chose to be a second class airline but I’m not a second class pilot. Stand up for yourselves. Have the courage stand in unity. Only our unity will get us the contract we deserve.
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