Frontier Hiring.
10-21-2015 | 12:18 PM
#3721
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 401
Likes: 5
Get comfortable because this is gonna take a while.
1. Why don't you just leave?
When a pilot has accumulated many years of longevity at a mainline carrier, there are a couple of realities that must be considered. The average senior pilot is probably not a young person anymore. The average age for folks with any kind of seniority at F9 is somewhere between 45 and 50 years old. This is a much different time of life versus mid to late 20's. We've got teenage children and are staring down the costs of college and doing our best to plan for retirement as it draws nearer by the day.
Starting over would mean taking a $100,000 per year paycut at exactly the time in our lives that we can't afford to do that. It would also mean being junior at a distant base which would require long distance parenting or uprooting kids during their teenage years which is also a really bad idea. The spouse's career and employment is another huge consideration.
I'm doing my best to not be a condescending old fart, but life decisions take on a different meaning at mid-40's versus mid-20's. I'm not complaining, believe me. I'm actually enjoying middle age. But it's different. Different in so many ways that I couldn't describe it accurately and fully in 30 pages, much less a single post.
2. Have you seen the regionals?
As a matter of fact, yes I have. I worked at what had to have been one of the 2 worst regionals in existence at the time. This was before GoJets. Before the Bedford version of Republic. I don't know how these two carriers would compare to Mesa of the 90's, but yes, I'm familiar with the regional segment of the industry.
This being said, I think the idea that you're comparing Frontier to a regional is pretty telling. Thank you for making my point for me. This is **supposed** to be a step up from the regionals. For us oldtimes, the move to Frontier was career **progression**, not a placeholder until somebody else hired us.
As I said in a post from many months ago, "We're better than most regional airlines." I can't believe our pilot recruitment folks haven't incorporated this catch phrase in our Job fair marketing materials.
3. Months or even years of thought to your career...
That's great. We all make the best decisions we can given the information available at the time a decision must be made. The information you're seeing in this thread should be considered when making a decision to come to Frontier.
Every airline has its issues. The difference is that airlines like Frontier have Third World style issues where the legacies have First World problems. We call crew scheduling after a double red eye at 4am begging them to get us a hotel in Chicago so that we can enjoy our 12 hour daytime rest. A legacy pilot worries about whether they should be staying in the downtown hotel or the airport hotel.
Another way to describe the differences in the problems we face is to simply state that Frontier pilots face the same challenges as many regional pilots in our daily existence. These problems are not problems at legacy carriers. They've moved on to the next level of challenges.
4. Idolize SWA or some other airline.
Specifically, with regard to SWA, I'm not interested. Historically, I was impressed with their "employees first" philosophy, but I think that has changed/is changing.
From an operational standpoint, I don't think I'd fit in. The place seems to move at a frenetic pace. Everybody seems to be in a hurry all the time. Sorta like watching an aggressive driver on the interstate weaving in and out of lanes trying to gain a five minute advantage over the course of a 90 minute drive. I'm just not that person. To continue the analogy, I'm the guy who sets the cruise control at the speed limit and cruises in the right lane. I don't begrudge the lane changers for wanting to move at a faster pace. I just choose not to participate.
Different strokes for different folks. Believe me, I'm not bashing SWA. They've obviously had a great deal of success and most folks are happy to be there. Back to my point from my original post: part of the job hunt should be an attempt to match your personality to the company you seek. SWA wouldn't be a good fit for me.
As for idolizing other airlines... This is a tough one for me and something I've put a lot of thought into lately. I'm not sure an airline exists where I'd be content. I'm starting to look outside the industry. In general terms, I'd like to have a job where my efforts are appreciated and where I don't have to fight every day to keep what I've got. Where I don't have to fight every day PERIOD. Someplace where we can come to a mutual agreement regarding what I'm to be paid and what's expected of me. I'll happily do my job and the company will happily pay me for doing my job well. I thought that's what I was getting when I came to Frontier.
1. Why don't you just leave?
When a pilot has accumulated many years of longevity at a mainline carrier, there are a couple of realities that must be considered. The average senior pilot is probably not a young person anymore. The average age for folks with any kind of seniority at F9 is somewhere between 45 and 50 years old. This is a much different time of life versus mid to late 20's. We've got teenage children and are staring down the costs of college and doing our best to plan for retirement as it draws nearer by the day.
Starting over would mean taking a $100,000 per year paycut at exactly the time in our lives that we can't afford to do that. It would also mean being junior at a distant base which would require long distance parenting or uprooting kids during their teenage years which is also a really bad idea. The spouse's career and employment is another huge consideration.
I'm doing my best to not be a condescending old fart, but life decisions take on a different meaning at mid-40's versus mid-20's. I'm not complaining, believe me. I'm actually enjoying middle age. But it's different. Different in so many ways that I couldn't describe it accurately and fully in 30 pages, much less a single post.
2. Have you seen the regionals?
As a matter of fact, yes I have. I worked at what had to have been one of the 2 worst regionals in existence at the time. This was before GoJets. Before the Bedford version of Republic. I don't know how these two carriers would compare to Mesa of the 90's, but yes, I'm familiar with the regional segment of the industry.
This being said, I think the idea that you're comparing Frontier to a regional is pretty telling. Thank you for making my point for me. This is **supposed** to be a step up from the regionals. For us oldtimes, the move to Frontier was career **progression**, not a placeholder until somebody else hired us.
As I said in a post from many months ago, "We're better than most regional airlines." I can't believe our pilot recruitment folks haven't incorporated this catch phrase in our Job fair marketing materials.
3. Months or even years of thought to your career...
That's great. We all make the best decisions we can given the information available at the time a decision must be made. The information you're seeing in this thread should be considered when making a decision to come to Frontier.
Every airline has its issues. The difference is that airlines like Frontier have Third World style issues where the legacies have First World problems. We call crew scheduling after a double red eye at 4am begging them to get us a hotel in Chicago so that we can enjoy our 12 hour daytime rest. A legacy pilot worries about whether they should be staying in the downtown hotel or the airport hotel.
Another way to describe the differences in the problems we face is to simply state that Frontier pilots face the same challenges as many regional pilots in our daily existence. These problems are not problems at legacy carriers. They've moved on to the next level of challenges.
4. Idolize SWA or some other airline.
Specifically, with regard to SWA, I'm not interested. Historically, I was impressed with their "employees first" philosophy, but I think that has changed/is changing.
From an operational standpoint, I don't think I'd fit in. The place seems to move at a frenetic pace. Everybody seems to be in a hurry all the time. Sorta like watching an aggressive driver on the interstate weaving in and out of lanes trying to gain a five minute advantage over the course of a 90 minute drive. I'm just not that person. To continue the analogy, I'm the guy who sets the cruise control at the speed limit and cruises in the right lane. I don't begrudge the lane changers for wanting to move at a faster pace. I just choose not to participate.
Different strokes for different folks. Believe me, I'm not bashing SWA. They've obviously had a great deal of success and most folks are happy to be there. Back to my point from my original post: part of the job hunt should be an attempt to match your personality to the company you seek. SWA wouldn't be a good fit for me.
As for idolizing other airlines... This is a tough one for me and something I've put a lot of thought into lately. I'm not sure an airline exists where I'd be content. I'm starting to look outside the industry. In general terms, I'd like to have a job where my efforts are appreciated and where I don't have to fight every day to keep what I've got. Where I don't have to fight every day PERIOD. Someplace where we can come to a mutual agreement regarding what I'm to be paid and what's expected of me. I'll happily do my job and the company will happily pay me for doing my job well. I thought that's what I was getting when I came to Frontier.
When the Frontier pilot group came up for air on the far side of bankruptcy we ended up about 180 out of sync with the rest of the industry's contract cycle. Today we have a few choices:
Enjoy direct deposit, and hope the job gets better (the top few % of the seniority list)
Actively participate in making the job better (far too few pilots do this)
Collect your pay while looking for a better job - in aviation or not (every pilot should be evaluating their personal situation all the time)
If you make the choice to come to Frontier KNOW there are better jobs to be had today. If you've got your own reason for coming to Frontier, in spite of what has been discussed here, good for you.
Frontier, in its current form, should be a stepping stone to a better job. Or, if you're a gambler, you could try to stick it out hoping against hope for a better CBA sooner than later, but don't get here - KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT THE JOB IS - and loudly complain that you got a raw deal.
10-21-2015 | 10:44 PM
#3722
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
regarding training contracts.
Spoke with one of our pilots who conducts interviews. He said yes. They give the details during the brief prior to interviews being conducted. It is prorated, but he couldn't remember the details. $24,000 is the total.
Spoke with one of our pilots who conducts interviews. He said yes. They give the details during the brief prior to interviews being conducted. It is prorated, but he couldn't remember the details. $24,000 is the total.
10-22-2015 | 05:14 AM
#3723
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Interviews and hiring?
So what is the latest and greatest on interviews and hiring? Anyone have numbers on classes and planned hiring coming up?
Anyone that went to the DEN job fair get a call yet? Anyone that DIDN'T go still getting a call?
Anyone that went to the DEN job fair get a call yet? Anyone that DIDN'T go still getting a call?
10-22-2015 | 05:25 AM
#3724
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: A320 FO
Embarrassing. This is a classic F9 problem, instead of making people want to stay, they make them sign a training contract.
10-22-2015 | 05:37 AM
#3725
New Hire
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
The company's presentation at that job fair was odd. It felt more like a time-share sales pitch. "30 years ago, would you have invested your money in Macy's or Walmart." "25 years ago, would you have invested your money in PanAm or Federal Express." They were trying to make the case that F9 was the next Amazon. For a company that wants a commitment to the F9 family from it's workforce, it sure felt cold and made me feel like my QOL was going to be used to maximize their profits long enough for them to cash out. The recent discussions on this thread about the upcoming contract negotiations gave me the same feeling. That may be an industry norm, too new to this game to know for sure.
10-22-2015 | 05:59 AM
#3726
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Training contracts are for regionals. If they have to twist your arm to stay, what does that really say about their corporate culture? It says they are aware of their competitive short coming but don't care enough to make the required changes.
10-22-2015 | 07:19 AM
#3728
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 98
From: 1900D CA
The loooooong rumored training contract.... Long rumored, never implemented. I'm about 90% sure that they talk about the training just to try and weed out guys who just want to use frontier as a stepping stone to United.
I think that frontier has every right to try and hire guys that want to stay there. They mention and maybe even threaten a training contract. They've been doing it for years, and still, no one has signed it.
Everyone has a different opinion on them, I get that. But at this point, Frontier hasn't made new hires sign it.
In regard to the job fair presentation; I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it. It does sound kind of strange. I think that what frontier has going for it is fast growth and a business model that makes huge profits. Our old, recession era contract is not going to attract many people. I think they are showing the big picture, that frontier is growing quickly and this new business model might stake a real chunk of the market in the future..
I think that frontier has every right to try and hire guys that want to stay there. They mention and maybe even threaten a training contract. They've been doing it for years, and still, no one has signed it.
Everyone has a different opinion on them, I get that. But at this point, Frontier hasn't made new hires sign it.
In regard to the job fair presentation; I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it. It does sound kind of strange. I think that what frontier has going for it is fast growth and a business model that makes huge profits. Our old, recession era contract is not going to attract many people. I think they are showing the big picture, that frontier is growing quickly and this new business model might stake a real chunk of the market in the future..
10-22-2015 | 02:41 PM
#3729
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
From: A320 Captain
If they are requiring one to sign a training contract then the quality of candidates that we are going to is going to be low. Our health insurance coverage has been getting worse year after year. Sticking the pilot with higher premiums for the same/lesser amount of coverage is really disheartening. First year pay is also abismal! If you are at a regional, you may want to stick it out there for a year or two longer and work on getting hired by a legacy or even JetBlue/Virgin. Pilot morale hear is getting real bad due to the company not willing to negotiate with the pilots and there willingness to step all over our CBA to their benefit. I have never seen so many grievances filed hear since I have been here. Never use to be like this. Company management really believes that the pilot group is happy and content.
10-22-2015 | 03:04 PM
#3730
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,937
Likes: 0
From: 717A
I went to the job fair in DEN a month ago and haven't gotten a call to interview. I was told there would be a $24k training contract prorated over two years, and was asked if I would have a problem signing that.
The company's presentation at that job fair was odd. It felt more like a time-share sales pitch. "30 years ago, would you have invested your money in Macy's or Walmart." "25 years ago, would you have invested your money in PanAm or Federal Express." They were trying to make the case that F9 was the next Amazon. For a company that wants a commitment to the F9 family from it's workforce, it sure felt cold and made me feel like my QOL was going to be used to maximize their profits long enough for them to cash out. The recent discussions on this thread about the upcoming contract negotiations gave me the same feeling. That may be an industry norm, too new to this game to know for sure.
The company's presentation at that job fair was odd. It felt more like a time-share sales pitch. "30 years ago, would you have invested your money in Macy's or Walmart." "25 years ago, would you have invested your money in PanAm or Federal Express." They were trying to make the case that F9 was the next Amazon. For a company that wants a commitment to the F9 family from it's workforce, it sure felt cold and made me feel like my QOL was going to be used to maximize their profits long enough for them to cash out. The recent discussions on this thread about the upcoming contract negotiations gave me the same feeling. That may be an industry norm, too new to this game to know for sure.
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