So JS, if we merge both proposals in mediation where do the pilots end up? ALPA's industry average purposal and Indigo absurd purpose = pilots lose big time. Indigo wants nothing more than to tie this up as long as possible. Indigos offer is nothing more but a stalling tactic. Mediation is like a marriage consular trying to divide up assets to end the fight. I'm sure ALPA is just looking to skip beyond mediation and then not agree to binding arbitration and hurrying to self help. Mediation is not going to achieve the contract we desirve.

 

Without a doubt, but it's a necessary step.

 

Keep in mind that mediation is NOT arbitration. A mediator cannot impose a contract on us. At the end of the process, the pilot group still votes on the results, and I believe there are now very few here willing to settle for a mediocre contract.

 

the proposals our association made are not set in stone. i said this a couple pages ago, but in lieu of the company's "offer", we need to tell our representatives to re submit new proposals that are-say 15% higher across the board in every aspect of the contract based on whatever airline has the best number in that particular category. if the company resubmits proposals even lower, then we come back with greater demands increased again by the same factor. legacies fly the same airplane we do. the only thing keeping us from getting the same contract they have is that we are being too spineless to ask for(demand) it.

this-and only this- will give us room to negotiate if it turns out that we need to.

the truth is that mediation doesn't mean much. it is not binding. no one has to agree to the advice they give. mediation is part of the process on the way to getting released to the 30 day cooling off period. arbitration is binding.

all of this has the potential to be a slippery slope. the present proposals do indeed seem like the minimum the pilot group will accept. the problem is that if we are unwilling to move from this position, the mediator may see us as being unreasonable and refuse to release us to the cooling off period. depending on who the mediator is, they may also see our proposals as reasonable and the company's as unreasonable. the problem is that you just never know.

the point of my post here is that i agree with you sulk. i believe we really need to raise our demands. this can be easily justified by southwest's new t.a. the market has changed to our benefit. i assume spirit, delta, and hawiian will get contracts before we do as well. i believe that when they do, we need to increase our demands again based on what they achieve. we owe it to ourselves and we deserve it. we don't work for a regional. the legacy affiliate can't whipsaw us by sending our flying another regional to keep wages low. we are the only pilot group that can do the flying that we do. they can't replace us. this is the biggest strength to our cause.

when spirit was in their cooling off period several years ago, indigo threatened to to shut down their then profitable airline if the pilots elected to go on strike. no one shuts down a profitable company for this reason. the pilots called their bluff and won. when we get to this point, they will yell and scream and threaten us too. in the end they will do what they need to do to save the cash cow they are riding on top of.

it sure is sad to see that some of you feel so downtrodden that you think your only recourse is to post unprofessional angry spew here in a public forum. none of that is going to get us closer to our goals. walking around the work place acting like an angry "doosh" isn't going to achieve anything unless you consider alienating your coworkers and giving yourself an ulcer an accomplishment. I've been through all this before. we can accomplish what we need to without all this crap. direct your ire where it's appropriate. if you go out of your way just a little bit to do something nice for one of your co-workers, they will probably go out of their way to do something nice for someone they work with too. it will make us a stronger unit. we already need all the help we can get in this area. it doesn't have to cost or save indigo any money one way or the other.

 

How long do you think mediation will last before the 30 day cooling off period and potential strike? Anyone have any ballpark ideas?

 

there is no way to guess this. take a look at hawiian and see what they are trying to accomplish. this will set a modern day precedent. the point is that the mediator needs to believe we are reasonable and the company is unreasonable. this isn't going to work if the only thing either party does is get angry and "take their ball and go home". the clock won't start until he declares an impasse.

getting the clock to start as quickly as possible is the only way we will ever get anything out of these donkeys. it is by far in their best interest to stall as long as possible because it is cheaper. simple economics. that is all.

 

You will NEVER get released,........see Allegiant. (And believe me I think the game is rigged for sure against pilot groups)

 

You can and will get released if you stick together. The Allegiant pilots didn't get released because their management got slightly more reasonable and the pilot group chose to ratify an underwhelming contract. Of course you don't get released if you choose to accept management's terms.

Remember this management group has a history and triggered a release in the middle of a recession. At spirit their offer was called contract 9000 because that's how unrealistic it was. It contained many of the same proposals that you guys just got in yours. They know it's absurd but it's a stall tactic. They stuck to their guns back in 2010 and that's what triggered the release. I imagine they will take it as far as they can this time and then change their tune at the final hour to prevent a strike. The frontier pilots could literally be asking for close to 100% raises with improved work rules and not be seen as unreasonable in today's market. The spirit pilots had a much different market to work with in 2010 and still persevered. Let this offer be a unifier toward a common enemey.

 

Close of business on a Friday would make the management shills weekend. Don't cha think?

 

i read this four times. i still am not sure what you mean?