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Old 04-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #7691  
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Originally Posted by wt93205 View Post
This is the new type of people applying now. They are lazy and don't want to do any research. They think apply and they will be called and then hired. That easy. That is how it was for them for the regionals so how could it be any different for a Major...
Frontier is not a Major, it's a ULCC, a ULCC that is a year or two away from having to hire CFIs at 1500hrs which may or may not be avoidable, but unless the Frontier Pilot group holds the line and turns down any and every offer that isn't better than a Major airline's contract, you can almost certainly guarantee that 1500hr CFIs will be sitting right seat in the 'bus and Frontier will be just another stepping-stone airline by the end of the decade.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:31 PM   #7692  
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Pretty unbelievable, some of the stuff in there. Healthcare looks like it for sure needs to change as well as the obvious pay discrepancy. Good luck to you. I hope you get what is truly fair.
Yes, the only thing we have that is marginally acceptable is our vacation. Everything else is complete garbage; yet, Management claims that we currently have a "Legacy" contract that needs significant alteration in order for our pay rates to increase by even extremely modest amounts...
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:43 PM   #7693  
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Frontier is not a Major, it's a ULCC, a ULCC that is a year or two away from having to hire CFIs at 1500hrs which may or may not be avoidable, but unless the Frontier Pilot group holds the line and turns down any and every offer that isn't better than a Major airline's contract, you can almost certainly guarantee that 1500hr CFIs will be sitting right seat in the 'bus and Frontier will be just another stepping-stone airline by the end of the decade.
Right, so with that logic SWA is not a major either, it's an LCC.

Frontiers every bit of a major airline and has been labeled as such since 2007.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majo..._United_States
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:53 PM   #7694  
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Right, so with that logic SWA is not a major either, it's an LCC.

Frontiers every bit of a major airline and has been labeled as such since 2007.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majo..._United_States
Man I hate to say it but the DOT can say whatever they want and that's not going to win your/our case for Frontier to be considered a Major.

Go to any pilot puppy mill in Florida or Arizona; ask the CFIs and the students there (the ones that aren't going home to Asia to sit right seat in a 'bus) what their goals are. I'm willing to bet something like 9.5 out of 10 will tell you that they want to fly for a major airline. They all say "The Majors" as if they are somehow going to fly for all of them at the same time. Ask them what "The Majors" are... they'll say:

United. Delta. American. heck even FedEx & UPS. MAYBE Southwest.

Unless mom or dad works for Frontier, you won't hear them mention the airline at all. Same with Spirit, Allegiant, Jetblue.

Now ask them why they're not willing to go to Frontier or the others and if they're polite you'll get a response like: "well, I wouldn't turn down a job there, but they don't pay very well" or "they don't have good travel benefits" or "I want to fly something bigger than an A320 someday"... etc etc etc.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:11 PM   #7695  
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Man I hate to say it but the DOT can say whatever they want and that's not going to win your/our case for Frontier to be considered a Major.

Go to any pilot puppy mill in Florida or Arizona; ask the CFIs and the students there (the ones that aren't going home to Asia to sit right seat in a 'bus) what their goals are. I'm willing to bet something like 9.5 out of 10 will tell you that they want to fly for a major airline. They all say "The Majors" as if they are somehow going to fly for all of them at the same time. Ask them what "The Majors" are... they'll say:

{blah, blah, blah....my edit}
Okie dokie. So the Department of Transportation is not a credible source, but you think a bunch of teenagers studying to be a pilot ARE credible?

Do you even read this stuff before you click the Submit Reply button?

The word you and your CFI candidate buddies are looking for is LEGACY. Frontier is not a Legacy carrier.

You and your buddies can now go back to debating whether the Coriolis Force makes toilet water spin in the opposite direction in the Southern Hemisphere. Carry on.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:14 PM   #7696  
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Okie dokie. So the Department of Transportation is not a credible source, but you think a bunch of teenagers studying to be a pilot ARE credible?
According to that link to the DOT info listed Wikipedia (that you didn't read), Skywest, Envoy, and Expressjet are all "Majors" too. So for the context/purpose of this discussion, the DOT's definition of a "Major" airline isn't really relevant. If you have any other sources that define "Major" airline and include Frontier but exclude regional carriers and the like please share them now....

Quote:
Do you even read this stuff before you click the Submit Reply button?
I obviously got further than you did...

Quote:
The word you and your CFI candidate buddies are looking for is LEGACY. Frontier is not a Legacy carrier.

You and your buddies can now go back to debating whether the Coriolis Force makes toilet water spin in the opposite direction in the Southern Hemisphere. Carry on.
Not a Legacy. Agreed.

If you want to call Frontier a "Major", then by your own argument(s) you have to call SkyWest a "Major" too. So by following your logic pathways, maybe FAPA should just throw in the towel, copy/paste the SkyWest Student Council's pilot "agreement" and close up shop immediately.

We can keep arguing about this and you can keep being angry about not being employed at a desireable airline to work, or we can unite and actually try to move forward and elevate everyone here.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:18 PM   #7697  
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Didn't they have a term back in the day: "Nationals" that better described, non legacy, non regional "Major" airlines?
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:22 PM   #7698  
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Didn't they have a term back in the day: "Nationals" that better described, non legacy, non regional "Major" airlines?
I think that's what is used on APC. "Major-National-LCC" is all lumped into one category.






Forgive me for the hardlining, it's incredibly frustrating talking to people and seeing posts on here, all saying "we need to give concessions to get a pay raise" when that is not at all the truth or anywhere close. "Major" airline pilots don't give concessions to get industry standard wages. That can get under your skin. So many people new-ish to the game that are willing to give up QOL just to get a quick pay bump that will just disappear next bankruptcy cycle.

Last edited by threeighteen; 04-10-2017 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:43 AM   #7699  
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I think that's what is used on APC. "Major-National-LCC" is all lumped into one category.






Forgive me for the hardlining, it's incredibly frustrating talking to people and seeing posts on here, all saying "we need to give concessions to get a pay raise" when that is not at all the truth or anywhere close. "Major" airline pilots don't give concessions to get industry standard wages. That can get under your skin. So many people new-ish to the game that are willing to give up QOL just to get a quick pay bump that will just disappear next bankruptcy cycle.
Grow up.
Your definition of "majors" have given concessions for decades. Back and forth. Save me the dribble. Guess you weren't around when Spirit was paid higher than the "majors".

Your instructors calling better head back into class.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:38 AM   #7700  
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Frontier is not a Major, it's a ULCC, a ULCC that is a year or two away from having to hire CFIs at 1500hrs which may or may not be avoidable, but unless the Frontier Pilot group holds the line and turns down any and every offer that isn't better than a Major airline's contract, you can almost certainly guarantee that 1500hr CFIs will be sitting right seat in the 'bus and Frontier will be just another stepping-stone airline by the end of the decade.
Didn't realize it would be such an issue. lol
Use to be easy and just say a major and people understood it wasn't a regional.
I will call all of them a "big airplane airline" then...
You get my point.

Last edited by wt93205; 04-11-2017 at 04:48 AM.
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