DENpilot

Ugh, such a disgusting attitude. NO AIRLINE, and I repeat, NO AIRLINE, has ever gone out of business because of what they had to pay their pilots. The pay cuts you took were pennies in the bucket to the overall operating cost of the airline. Quit being delusional. You didn't save anything. You made a decision out of fear and irrationality to keep a check in your pocket. Not only that, you negotiated AWFUL terms on getting that money back. Who in their right mind would look back and say the paycuts taken were done with the pilots' best interest in mind 5 years down the road?

Oh, and it is the junior pilots that are affected most. Our first year pilots make less than a regional airline first year FO. Funny, because I only ever hear this tripe from folks on the top 100 of the list. You know, the guys who had a 6 month upgrade here.

ReserveCA

[QUOTE=A319;2317281]I am in no way advocating for a discount pay. I think our pay should be in line with what our peers are paid. Delta is not our peer. Spirit, Allegiant and jetBlue are our peers.

huh....
I strongly disagree...
My peer is anyone who is RESPONSIBLE for 186 - 230 plus crew in the aluminum tube flying red eyes transcon....
767. 787.......

Leslie Chow

^^^^This.^^^^

OpenClimb

I too am interested in hearing why pilots at Spirit, Jet Blue, and Allegiant are my peers, but Delta, American, Southwest, and United are not.

Seriously. This isn't a rhetorical question. I understand that the business models are different, but I fail to see how the job "Pilot" differs among the various carriers.

I consider myself to be a reasonable, thinking person. Please convince me that pilots at LCCs should be paid less using something other than a variation on the theme of "that's the way it's always been."

Leslie Chow

^^^^This, too.^^^^

FlipTheDolphin

I sometimes wonder what is more damaging to our pilot group... Indigo's stalling and unwillingness to negotiate, or attitudes such as this. Advocating, and negotiating in public, that you feel we are worth less than other pilots flying the same equipment with more passengers... often with fewer resources and more challenging schedules. Nearly a year of negotiating with little to no progress is not status-quo.

Take a look in this very thread. New hires are talking about how to uber to and from ground school everyday. How to negotiate a good cash-only deal at a hotel so they can afford to attend training. For this they will receive $39/hr and sign a training contract. We should all be so proud of what Frontier has become. Collectively we can change this. See you on April 19th.

dracir1

A very good point, however . . .

At some future date, the negotiations will eventually produce a TA. It will probably occur when we get real close to striking or actually do for a couple of days. The company's offer (maybe it's the first offer or one down the road) will get sent out w/ modest but certainly not industry leading wages. And, it will be the choice of each and every one of us to accept or reject.

One of two possibilities will happen.

Option 1

We all vote and it passes. Maybe by 55%. Maybe 70%. Maybe more. No matter how close it is, of course, EVERYONE will be talking about how bad the contract is that we just accepted and how they voted no. F9 cockpits for the next 2-3 years will be full of discussion and the so-called "hard liners" will be touting their prowess of how we should've held out for more or industry leading wages. Meanwhile, the company will be kicking themselves because any vote greater than 50.1% gave too much...

In all honesty, that's what I bet is going to happen. That's what always happens.

But, let's just say, for arguments sake, that that doesn't happen and the "hard liners" on here get their way.

Option 2

We show solidarity and vote no. The company counters with slightly more $ and/or slightly better work rules. Still no. TA after TA: no, no, no. The process continues for years (FedEx was 9 years wasn't it) but in the meantime, the mantra of getting industry leading wages or bust is now believed by the GO. In which case, the company now has a decision to make. And that decision is how likely are they to accept the increase to what we want vs. just find new pilots.

I mean, if it were simply a matter us demanding legacy carrier work rules and rates + $1 more then striking and holding out for however long it takes to get them, it would seem that strategy would've already been employed, by every labor group, all the time. But that's not the case. I have very little experience w/ airline labor negotiations but the info I've read/researched does discuss one alternative the company might consider IF they deem the cost increase too high. The company does have a recourse. It will be in the form of making some sort of offer (probably very little increase or standing by their final one offered) and going out and hiring scabs (trust, there WILL be Frontier pilots that cross the picket line) and reducing the flight schedule until enough scabs/new hires can replace the remaining labor. Those that remain on strike for the long haul will stay on strike forever. In this scenario, the financial hit the company takes is short term and one that they find to be less costly than the labor raise in the long run. This happened to Continental pilots (somewhat) in 1983-85. Do you really think THIS management team and owner won't take the short term hit for a slightly increased but still well below average labor contract and retool the pilot labor from the ground up? I can only imagine how many regional pilots there are out there that will gladly fly an A-320 especially when the upgrade time is 6 months due to the strike.

Of course, nobody knows how much is the company REALLY willing to pay before saying "F*&k it" and exercising plan B. One thing is for sure. It's very noble to talk tough in a digital forum (while still receiving a paycheck) but it's another thing entirely to not have prepared adequately for the possibility of an unwanted career change w/ bills stacking up and the spouse complaining. It will be interesting to see, when our day of decision comes, how many pilots will put on their uniform, pick up a sign and walk the pavement in Denver, Orlando and Chicago holding out for industry-leading wages. How many F9 pilots are prepared to absorb a month long strike or longer?

Personally, I don't expect it to come down to that. Why? Well, for me, pay rates in a vacuum mean nothing and I know that not every F9 pilot is a "hard liner."

The language in that TA, whatever it is, will come down to a personal decision for each and every one of us. Obviously for some, it will be enough. For others, it won't be. I have no idea how I'm going to vote because I have no idea what that TA looks like yet. But, frankly, if the work rules are worded correctly and my QoL is sky high, pay rates don't really matter as much as I'll be able to "work the system" to get the pay that I want (hopefully). Of course, I'm not going to accept what I consider substandard pay and rules but I'm also not looking for $280/hr 12 yr CA pay if we go to PBS, the reserve rules get worse, min duty day reduces, 0% deadhead pay, no trip cancellation pay, etc. Plus, the longer it takes to get a contract, the longer I receive current pay.

Quite frankly, I trust the negotiators and the collective sentiment of all our pilots. If a majority of us like an offer, I may not like it personally but I'm not going to complain later. I'll be a big boy and either accept it or go sell insurance for the next 20.

Trowserchilli

Option 2 won't be an option.
Indigo has already been through a strike. They realize there won't be enough scabs to continue on as a viable entity. They also realize the flying won't be picked up by charter companies, nobody picked it up for them during the Spirit strike. They also know how much the strike cost them. They also know what impact it had on pax loads going forward after the strike, which was minimal.

Option 3
We continue negotiating in good faith. Get realesed. Enter the cooling off period. A couple hours before the strike a TA will come out.
Pay will not be Delta plus anything. It will be industry average for the aircraft we fly. That's what our union is negotiating for, industry average. That's the only way the mediator will release us.

Also keep in mind a 75 hour guarantee is not industry average either. Look for the company to come to the table with lessor guarantees, perhaps one for reserve and one for line holders, similar to the industry average.

PBS is also industry average or standard. This is a major sticking point at Spirit right now with their new CBA. Apparently Indigo isn't asking for it here at F9.

This is a MEDIATED negotiation, don't expect to sit at the table with industry standard demands and not be asked for the same in return.

On a side note. The company did offer $224 for max captain pay year two of the contract in their proposal. That's close to or at industry average. That number being their initial pay offer I feel there's room to negotiate more on pay. Unfortunately the rest of the proposal was sub standard.

Patternholder

The union is negotiating for Industry Standard pay! Not industry average....there is a difference. If it is average there will be chili in my trowsers!

Yetifan

Well said!