Here's an article about the Vegas expansion from a Vegas newspaper. Interesting point - Last paragraph says we will have more departures than Spirit with this expansion. Spirit has a base here with about 100 pilot crews according to my friend that works there.

Apparently we are now using 2 different hotels because hotel one cant accept any more crews.

Frontier Airlines adding 16 new flights to Las Vegas schedule this summer | Las Vegas Review-Journal

 

Bad behavior? Exactly what bad behavior has the company engaged in? Our current contract was negotiated and agreed on by the pilot group and wasn't amendable until 3-17, which is now.

I think people here confuse "bad behavior," with the company simply following the contract, that was agreed on by the pilot group. (I will say I know not everyone thinks the company follows the contract, but I think a lot of the people here who have these issues bring it on themselves. I am a line holding Captain and I have never once had the contract violated by the company.) There is never an excuse for the company to not follow the contract, and that's why we have a grievance process in place.

People at this airline forget that WE agreed to our work rules that are currently in place. Are some of them outdated? Yes. Do some of them need to be changed? Yes, but I am frankly tired of hearing about it.

I get asked by practically every FO I fly with about the contract, and I always say the same thing. Logically, a new contract will happen. This is the business we are in. The company is just doing what any good management team does when negotiating with their employees, this is part of the game. A "good" management group wants to make money, no airline, or any other company is in it for employee charity, they are in it to make money. Simple capitalism. I thought most pilots were republicans? Which, in my opinion, is in itself an oxymoron, being so pro-labor, but belonging to a group who is notoriously anti-labor. But, that's a different post entirely.

It's all pretty simple honestly, we will get a new contract and we will get a raise. Great. Let's move on.

 

I think the tired line of "they're just doing what they're supposed to" or "mgmt's job is to get us to fly for free" is a HUGE disservice to employees everywhere and a gross rationalizing of incompetent and greedy "me first/I got mine" executives.

There have been and still are today plenty of companies that provide great jobs with good pay and wonderful benefits, I.e. treat their employees well and yet still make massive profits. A GOOD company does NOT make its profits at the EXPENSE of its employees.

Historically there's even been a few airlines who've managed to figure out that formula for at least a time. See FedEx pre-flying tigers merger or Southwest in its heyday.

A really good management team realizes that their employees are an asset to be taken care of and that providing good qol thru pay and benefits generates happy employees who are more productive, provide better service, and generate sustainable long term profits. The problem is so many executive, bod's and shareholders these days don't care about long term. It's all me me me NOW NOW NOW.


EDIT: also, if you're a line holding captain you've been here for at least 3+ years. If you say they've never violated the contract on you I'd easily bet you just don't know the contract as well as you probably should.

 

The term "good," when being used to describe a company, or an airline is totally subjective. I am not arguing whether or not this company is "good" or not, but if you are judging solely based on finances, one would probably use that word to describe it.

I think they key to your post is understanding that the airlines you mentioned WERE PREVIOUSLY pilot friendly and offered tremendous benefits, but everyone has realized that they can no longer compete, especially with the ULCC's by doing so.

I want to make sure I am not misunderstood in this post, I am very much pro-labor and very much in favor of a new contract and industry standard wages, but if anyone thinks we will get paid more than Delta (I have heard this on the line), they are wrong and seriously misinformed.

Yes, I have been here much longer than 3 years and know the contract very well. Most pilots here, however, do not know the contract well enough though, and that is a good point. You must have a pretty pessimistic view if you automatically think that because I have been here a while the contract must have been violated, but I was just too stupid to know. I don't think that is fair. I also believe that optimism plays a lot into interpretation. Then, you probably won't believe me when I say I have NEVER EVER gotten a call from the CPs office either, for anything, ever. If you show up to work on time, keep your head down and do your job, no one notices you, I like it that way.

More times than not, it seems, the pilots who run into trouble bring it on themselves.

 

I agree with most of what's being said with the exception of the fact that we will never see industry leading pay.
If we strike there is zero reason to return to work for anything but industry leading. Just like Spirit did.
Unfortunately indigo knows this and why I think they will cave at 11:59....

 

Every pilot on property has seen the company violate the contract. See LOA 67 negotiations, or lack thereof.

This, in contrast to JetBlue, which recently negotiated interim payraises and profit sharing in advance of a full CBA.

Couple this with the post-outsourcing operation, and total lack of accountability for the environment they have created, and that's why most pilots don't have any faith in this management team. It's not just the section 6 process.

 

Perhaps you can expand on this? I hear this attitude frequently from CA's on the line which worries me. Exactly WHY should we NOT get paid what Delta does? Usually, the answers I get are related to our ULCC business model. The model that upper management has chosen to make the highest profits they can is of absolutely no concern to me. If they could make more with First Class and all the perks, they'd do it.

The ULCC business model incorporates cost reductions where they can control it. Mostly, it is limited investment in infrastructure, and higher density seating at the cost of pax comfort. But they cannot control some basic airline business costs. They do not purchase main landing tires, for example, for a discount on account of being a ULCC. We don't get a discount on fuel because we're a ULCC. Pilots here need to adopt the mindset that they do not get discounted pilots either. We are as much a cost of doing business as fuel and tires.

We fly A321's with more pax than industry 757's. We need to be paid industry standard wages for the airframes we fly. I think we work harder than Delta Pilots. Our lack of investment in infrastructure and ground handling means we have to be ultra alert, and are regularly catching mistakes that could lead to FAA violations. The regularity of passenger disturbances puts plenty at risk as well, and we're generally not getting paid when these events occur.

How management makes the money behind our paychecks is their job, and they're doing that fairly well when you consider our astronomically high profit margins. I personally have no intentions of giving Franke a discount on my labor for any reason.





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@A319: not calling you stupid. I've flown with plenty of very smart, great guys who didn't know various parts of the contract well enough to know of a potential violation. There's lots of "quiet" violations that go on, such as not processing open time within the contractual time limit (which happened on a pretty massive scale during the last winter meltdown).

 

Beautifully written, SeaRider.

 

Amen, Searider. Couldn't agree more. I think it's part of the "little ol' Frontier" attitude that has led to that sentiment. And management is exploiting that attitude on our backs. We have always been the underdog, and some have resigned that there is no way to achieve the higher rates that we deserve.

Very eloquently stated.