Jdub2

Here’s a thought. Russia is not our friend and we are in a zero sum game.

The cause of the war is immaterial to me. I feel bad for the all the Ukrainians and for some of the Russians pressed into service with no training equipment and support sent as literal cannon fodder.

At the end of the day, though, this is to our benefit. A weaker, discontent, and maligned Russia is to our benefit. I cannot understand fellow conservatives that do not understand that. Even if you’re dumb enough to put pooter on a pedestal, you should be happy he is failing

Edit to follow up, we were not involved in this. We just played a proxy war somewhat competently for once

Hubcapped

I absolutely agree with this. I cannot for the life of me understand how Putin suddenly became “ok”. Russia unchecked was never going to stop at just Ukraine. You could counter with “you don’t know that.” And of course I’d agree with you, but would you take a chance? Unchecked aggression in Europe would destabilize the entire region, and cause a huge geo commercial meltdown.

I am not altruistic or attempting to portray anything remotely resembling a moral obligation (you could argue we do), but if you take that road then there are 69 other hotspots in the world that would require the same attention. But rather, the point is to emphasize that a beat down Russia now is much more favorable then a Russia 20 years from now, with 3 or 4 eastern bloc countries under their belt and conscripts in their ranks.

Furthermore I believe it sends a message to China that we could, maybe, possibly have the courage to actually defend Taiwan.

There’s alot more going on here then just corrupt Ukraine imho

Could you image the reactions of Reagan, bush, Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley, MacArthur, etc etc hearing that ANY Americans don’t have the guts to stand up to Russia because of gas prices or “corrupt” Ukraine? They would go bonkers

All countries led by an autocrat should NEVER be allowed to expand their borders. Period. We have a direct historical lesson of why this is a bad idea.

400,000 plus guys died to keep Europe out of the hands of these people. Beans and bullets are the least we can do

Mesabah

The tech I posted above replaces natural gas, it's Bill Gates company. The reason this specific type of nuclear power is important, is because it replaces the fast throttling natural gas plants, which solar and wind are critically dependent on. This is where Putin derives his power, he was basically installed by Gazprom years ago to take advantage of European emissions exportation.

MaxQ

By and large a good post. To address a couple items you mention.

Many people have become Putin supporters due to decades of active measures by Russia in spreading disinformation, false history, misconstrued history etc. Their active measures have masterfully used the internet and social media to create a great deal of false reality in order to advance Putin's short term and long term objectives. It has been very effective both in reach and credulousness.

Another part of this, unfortunately, requires me to at least touch on the taboo of politics. President Trump has been involved with Russian organized crime as far back as 1984. The first successful KGB influence campaign with him occurred in 1987. It would take a great deal of typing to give some idea of the nexus that has developed In Russia (and the former Republics) between the state police (KGB, now FSB) and the world of professional organized crime...the vory z zakone. Russia does not have a government as we understand it. It is basically a crime syndicate run by a merger of the FSB and the Professional criminals. Putin became the head guy both in terms of the visible Head of State, but also the true top guy of this merged, surreal National power/government structure. By these connections it has required a certain degree of relationship between Trump and this power structure of which Trump, his brand, and the Trump organization would have been supplicants.
Also Putin, though not a patriot, is a strong Russian Nationalist. He lends voice and performa action to Euro Nationalism (with Russia as the Pure), disgust with homosexuality, disdain for weak liberal values and a general air of toughness. In short, if you are a believer in authoritarian toughness, (amongst other worldviews) he is a fellow traveler. Trump loves him, he's against the world order of post WW2, he's a nationalist....what's not to like?
So yes....Putin is widely admired for this (and lots more that I self edit) by many followers of D. Trump, his Defacto political party, and all authoritarian leaders who have an interest in undermining the European Union and transatlantic alliances upon which Europe's peace and prosperity has rested upon for 70 years.

Just one last note. You tossed out the phrase "corrupt Ukraine". This is considered common knowledge. It is out of date.
The Maidan Revolution of 2014 has been framed as a revolt against President Yanukovych alinement with Russia and Eurasia versus Europe. (Russian disinformation frames it as a CIA organized coup). The former is only partially true. It was also a revolt of the People against the organized crime bosses who hail from the Donbas Region (and a lesser extent Crimea). It was, and is, battle against the Vory who had the power and stole the wealth of the Nation.
To rid themselves of this mind numbing level of corruption and criminality, the leaders from the Donbas had to be ousted, and also a cleansing of national police. A by product of this is that it requires a major rupture in ties with the Russian govt....because the Ukraine vory and the Russian vory and the FSB and the SBU were all a Gordanian knot. I am certain there is still corruption in Ukraine. But it is on a level of diminishment that is several magnitudes of order.
I haven't read it anywhere, nor had it confirmed by much more knowledgeable people that I speak with about Ukraine/Russia, but I do suspect some of Putin's reason for the invasion is to reinstate the Donbas criminals in Ukraine's govt so they can go back to extracting the Nation's wealth for themselves. A hypothesis that presently I have no proof of.

Hubcapped

Very thoughtful comments. I actually believe as you that if you follow trumps money trail (couldn’t get loans and suddenly poof) all roads lead to Russia. I also believe Ukraine is not as corrupt as fox would lead its following to believe.
I was trying to be diplomatic and not draw the right wing honey flies that parrot everything they hear on fox.

CNN is just as bad in their own way, but I find it so so fascinating that the right fell to a propaganda machine that glorified breaking the law and supporting Russia. It’s truly insane where we are atm.

Disclaimer: this seems like the appropriate place to talk about this as long as it’s civil. If not my bad

MaxQ

Hi Hub,
I don't have the time to make a reply with much reflection or length.
With those limits in mind:
1. I agree with the view that we need to support countries that are defending themselves from outright military invasion. The support need not involve American presence.
2. Putin's worldview is a Slavic updated form of Anschluss.
3. Putin's other strategic views involve the West and Liberal Democracy as mortal enemies to Russia's rightful place in the sun. They are enemy because they exist, not because of what they do.
4. Ukraine would fight with or without our support.
5. Long term goals of Putin are to weaken/destroy NATO, The European Union, and the USA/European Transatlantic ties. Much of Russian active measures are targeted at these goals. They include recruitment and use of agents of influence. Some/One of these assets have achieved positions where they/he actually have the power of direction. Far exceeding mere influence.
Ok...running late..gotta go.

flyprdu

I think Russia getting stuffed in Ukraine may have given the Chinese a moment of pause. If the Chinese do attempt anything, it will be some middle ground tactic. A naval blockade. Whether or not we run that blockade and call their bluff, I'll leave that to higher pay grades.

I don't see how the west sits by while another autocrat tries to strangle Taiwan. China knows this.

In any case, one Paper Tiger at a time.

rickair7777

Yes, the CCP was disappointed at the global backlash to the UR invasion. There were other recent developments (pre UR conflict) in Asia which also did not bode well for their ambitions. I'm more optimistic about that problem than I have been for many years.

Hubcapped

At face value it feels like Russia completely failed to understand modern logistics, and specifically how western intel (drones, elint, sat, and humint) coupled with accurate stand off weapons, could leave their supply lines in shambles. Almost like they were still stuck in 1980s style warfare. Very interesting

WHACKMASTER

Amen. Nice to see someone gets it. Putin belongs in hell right next to Stalin. He is a threat to freedom and democracy and is worth fighting.

This has been an absolute blessing in an ironic way as it gives the Free World a chance to weaken his ability to spread oppression and totalitarianism for quite a while to come. I just hope we take full advantage of it.