Closing West Coast bases and giving up on point to point west coast cities to neighbor islands was a gigantic strategic mistake. This is why Alaska is a 5B company and we're far from it..

Hope we can reverse this before Alaska is entrenched.

I hope you're right, but I disagree about the plane size being an issue...

We could have had A330 or 767 service from LA to Big Island, Maui or Kauai long ago... United even covers a lot of routs from SF/LA to neighbor islands now..

Bases on the west coast would make those efficient turns unless we want to open bases on the neighbor islands.. Alaska after all is called Alaska but has it's principal base of ops in Seattle.

Making money is good for obvious reasons.... What worries me, and others junior like me, is shareholders make money whether there are 617 pilots or 500 pilots.....

I want the company to be profitable. That is given... What I don't want is HA to figure that it is more profitable doing X amount of routes with X amount of airplanes.. X being something less than it is today...

Don't get me wrong, still happy as poop working here. Love my job, but been through several companies (6) over the last 13 years. It always seems to start the same.. "Nobody worry, just an adjustment...." Next thing ya know, all hell breaks loose. At any other airline losing 2 routes is hardly noticed.. Here it's a good chunk of our wide body route system.

No sky falling, but still keeping a keen eye on it.. I guess it is good HA stock still jumped 7% last I checked this morning. Big firm upgraded their rating from hold to buy... So someone still is seeing good things even though it has been a crappy week of memo's (vacancy bid, FUK, TPE, KOA-HND loss)

CATIII, Bored, KAF, great posts, great debate and opinion. I enjoyed reading it and it keeps me abreast along of what Im reading in financials of HAL. As an outsider looking in since 2008, I welcome all of your posts in regards to the "shuffling of the deck chairs". I only hope that I can get my rear on the bottom of that list next requisition. Keep the info rolling, I love to follow the Pualani and all of the developments. Cheers

The shareholders should be happy with the stock price right now. It has climbed substantially in the last few months.
They might not care about the number of pilots, but future growth, earnings, and profitability have a substantial impact on how the stock is viewed.

I admire your optimistic outlook and want to share in it. Sadly with several failed attempts at a career and having been that guy who's always showing up late to the party wondering why everyone is shutting of the lights and going home, I certainly hope this time is different.

I interviewed in mid 2012 and was told they were hiring 100 a year for the foreseeable future.. inside of one year that story change to "more hiring in 2017" ... In the end, the orders mean nothing until they're sitting on the ramp with Pualani on the tail.... as it stands, we're giving back in 767's what we are getting in A330s.. for a net growth of 0... that's where we stand NOW.

While I want HAL to make money and grow, profit and survive into the 22nd century.. I also need my career to fare well in the exchange.

Glad you brought up negotiations..... Even with a wave of negative news stories, the one thing that is difficult to hide ( unfortunately not impossible) is profitability.... Some of us can be skeptical at the moment, due mostly to past experience. However, as long as the company remains profitable and Wall Street likes us, it'll be hard for anyone to keep us down in negotiations.

Little bit worried but definitely unified;)

There has definitely been some good back and forth here that has provided some humor, and thanks for that.

Hopefully my 2,000hrs+ of heavy jet PIC would provide some competitive edge if and when HAL ever opens up their application window (USAF time) but I won't hold my breath. But, I continue the dream.

Thanks to those that have provided some real company hiring i sight.

Sadly at Hawaiian I have observed experience means very little and who you know is 95% of what gets you interviewed and in most cases hired save the occasional logical moments.. And military pilots are grossly under represented in the recently classes.

But I do sincerely wish you well when you apply because I for one think Hawaiian needs your kind of experience more than most airlines, as we hire straight into a 330 that crosses the biggest ocean in the world as an IRO.

Thanks. I have crossed the Pacific numerous times in the KC10 and I continue to instruct students on how to do it correctly.

If you are at HAL I would love to be able to send you my resume for consideration and push if you are willing to take a look at it.

Would love to help but we really only get one person we can recommend and I already have a few close friends who've flown on 6 continents and crossed many oceans aswell to help. Good luck however... With you're resume you should be a shoe in for something good.

Is there any benefit to the company for a west coast base besides covering outstation sick/timeouts? If not, it's probably still worth it if done right, right? How about a SFO/OAK common base? Maybe that would make the most sense. Hey, you could even throw in SJC and SMF with longer callouts. Out of SFO and OAK you could easily deadhead crews on UAL or SWA anywhere. For pilots, it's better than LA because of public transportation and traffic. What about the possibility of being cross-trained/utilized on A330 and A321 simultaneously? Am I way off here? :)

There is always talk and rumor on re opening west coast bases and I'm sure senior management is constantly studying it. When the noes come, they may or may not do something .... And the current move towards one fleet type is also a factor as currently both 767 and A330 fly to the west coast making a base less cost effective from that standpoint.

In the end, if/when it is the companies interest to open one, I'm sure the union would engage the issue, but until then it's just rumor.. I came here expecting no west coast base in the short term, this way ™ expectations are realistic. Truth also be told, if one were to open it would likely go quite senior and I wouldn't be able to hold it anyway... Much less any new hires.

Yea, good call. Gotta assume HNL base for the whole career.

and also good call that the next point in time to take a good look at it would be if/when the 321's come.

West Coast base is atleast a blip on the radar. I know there has been some feasiability reports done on it.. If it goes any farther than analysis I'd be very suprised short term..perosnal opinion

Another issue with the Neo's is what kind of trips they will be flying.. Will it be 2 day trips out of HNL.. Or 3 day trips out of HNL where even the most senior will have to give up days off for a line.... (or we vote in better daily rigs in a few years)

Not sure how a West Coast base would change anything. But maybe with the new 117, West Coast basing would allow easier 2 day trip pairings or turns?? And with 16+ a/c going back and forth, maybe a west Coast base would aid in hiccup recovery??

Either way the Neo's can't get here soon enough.. Giving AK a decade head start was a poor move IMO..

West Coast base may help in some cases. Duty days starting between 0700-1200 allow the longest duty time.

This!

and This!

Any news over at the Pualani? Been quiet on here...

yeah, displacements, stagnation, schedule cut backs and VERY anemic retirement numbers. Likely no hiring for 3 years... Sorry to be the bringer of bad news. Delta, United and American all hiring... good luck.

NO BUENO! Sucks guess gonna just have to keep waiting! Thanks for the heads up CATIII

Just heard that a new vacancy bid should be coming out in August…hopefully some more hiring...

Call me an optimist, but there has to be a reason they are interviewing for people to be interviewers... Seems it would be a waste of time if they weren't planning something sometime before 2017?

Also, in the month of April, on the 767, I would have easily broke guarantee if not for a few schedule adjustments by myself...plus I must have gotten called 4 times during the month for over 75... Did one....

Walls street liked our 1Qt numbers..... And have high hopes for the year.... Even with the changes recently it seems it's still business as planned....

Last month's Alpa "Strategic plan overview" say that we'll be adding 1-2 airframes per year for the next 5 years, leading to 50 new hires per year. When our contract becomes amendable in 2015 we should have close to 700 pilots on the seniority list.

Yeah, read that a bit ago also....

If that plan does hold, that'll be roughly 80 more by next summer.. For those, like me, mathematically challenged!!!:D


My only realistic plan is to either be a very junior NEO CPT or a senior 330 FO.. IMO both have their pluses for me personally. And if either works out in the 2017-2020 timeframe I will have considered my first 5-8 years here a success.

IMHO, I'd suggest guys think in terms of an average of 6 upgrades and 12 new hires per added airframe. (The actual number is of course determined by the number of block hours, segments, and unproductive layover days required by the schedule.) So if you're thinking about upgrade take the number of guys above you to the bottom captain, currently about 340, then subtract retirements, and divide by 6....that's the number of airframes required. Then guess at how many years to get that many airframes as a net increase. The company has said all along that the 330 deliveries give them flexibility....they can retain the 76s and increase flying, or return 76s and slow the growth to match demand or economic conditions. This is exactly what they've done.

If we add one airframe net per year for the next 3 years that would likely require 18 new captains, and allowing for 24 retirements that would be 42 new captain slots. 12 new hires plus 24 retirements equals 36 new hires. This is a reasonable guestimate for the next three years baring any major marketing change or other driver....that's anyone's guess. Our success, (or a lack thereof), in China may be a wild card, but only time will tell.

A321 deliveries start late 2016 or early 2017 at maybe 4-5 year will speed things up, but if you're number 500 for example, you're probably realistically going to need all of the 321 deliveries to make captain.

And lastly, let's hope that there isn't an acquisition or merger. All bets are off at that point.

Well explained captainF.... Seeing how were now up to sen 620 or so, that basically means any newhires can plan to be FOs for upwards of two decades unless we keep most of not all out 767s.

In this industry timing is everything and the guys who got hired in 2009,2010 timed it well, the 2011 and 2012 guys less so, especially 2012... Minimum 10 years to the bottom of the 717 list.

There are literally dozens of under 40 year old captains now, and retirement are about half or less that of the other Legacies.

Truth be told, your last statement may be valid for the younger senior guys on our list, but if you're an older guy hired after 2011, a combined seniority list with American or Delta will mean a much faster upgrade due to massive retirements at those carriers.

HAL is my focus, always has been. Ive interviewed twice, last in August of 2012. I received the "we are still interested letter" and still have not received a "Thanks but the requisition you have interviewed under has been filled" letter.

Am I still in the running?? HAL never sent out the "Req closed" letters as rumored this past Decemeber. Please tell me I've still got a chance! Im in my early 40's, 11 years at the regionals, I dont care about the upgrade at HAL, I just want to be a part of it.....

Thank you in advance for the replies!!

Good thoughts by everyone... But what everyone needs to realize is things could change in a month or year.... We could announce another big growth spurt, or the opposite..

To predict a new hire is gonna be an FO for 2 decades is a little shortsighted... Especially for a compnay with only 600 pilots to begin with... Ask any of those furloughed guys if they ever thought they would be a widebody captain just a couple years after returning from furlough.

I've got friends pushing 7 years at Delta, and even longer at SWA and United....all still FO's, the Delta guy is still on the 88 maybe could hold 320 depending on base, looking at maybe a 10 yr upgrade into a 717 in maybe DTW... All about perspective.....

That's exciting news. Do you think anyone has a chance to get on with HAL if you're from the Mainland and currently have no letter of recommendation on file?

Just keeping it real... the company is far bigger now than it's ever been. To expect it to grow again at the rate it did from 2008-2012 is very optimistic to say the least.... its' like expecting the real estate market to boom again like it did in the early 2000's again now. We've already pulled out of several routes that were part of that aggressive growth plan (Manilla, Taipei, Fukuoka, and scaled back JFK)... we're now doing 2 days trips to PDX and SFO, used to be 3 day... I can go on, but you get the idea.

The junior captain at DAL is basically the junior captain at HAL.. most of our junior CA's were hired around '99 or 2000, as with DAL... the handful of CA's we have hired in 2008 are as a result of 0-hiring at HAL between 2000-2008... DAL on the other hand has been hiring on and off since 2003.

Again, just keeping it real... we get enough Koolaid from our management, lets give the guys considering leaving 10 year careers for HAL the whole picture so they can make an informed choice.

Yes and Yes, but less likely than if you were local or had internal recs.

I'd say the internal is far more important than where you live from what I've seen of the latest hires, many of whom commute.

Let's not forget contractual improvements in 2015 may increase pilot staffing levels. Hopefully the negotiating committee will focus more on improving our work rules and less on pay/retirement.

Question for the HAL folks. Where do most commuters commute to? If given the opportunity to get on at HAL I would most likely want to move to HNL(to realize my dream of not commuting) but I've been doing research on COL and of course as you all know already that's an incredible eye opener. I currently live in South Florida to give you perspective. Thanks in advance gents.

-2263

the only way they'll know to do that is if we all let them know that Quality of Life is our priority. HAL pilots are typically some of the most productive pilots among the Legacies (Continental being the other), which is a win for the company... it's not going to be easy, but we need to make it so we work less and get paid more, to put it simply. Better rigs, better reserve rules (long and short call, with more days off on both), and better Vacation / Training month rules. We also need to get the guys off the idea that for every gain we get, we have to give something back... we're not in a concessionary environment, but a lot of our pilots haven't known anything else, and they are still programmed to give back... there should be little to no give back in contact 2015.

Let Doug know this is important, or he'll just hear from the 90/hr month guys and think all we want is an hourly pay raise.

As to whether HAL offers a great career at this stage in the game or not, I'll leave history to be written by events. I for one have learned that the most dangerous thing a pilot can do is drink the Koolaid, but that's just me. Count your chicks before they hatch, etc..

Anyone wanting to work here needs to just do their own research. The question isn't weather this is a good place to work, as it most undoubtedly is... the question is whether it's too late to ride the growth here.

On that note, I'm done here.

Anyone in the know: can you help me with post #1014? Cheers!

Yeah Bro, why you gotta be like that. HA will always be among the best. Im gonna do my best to get on here in the next couple o years when everyone is in a free for all. I hear guys sayin it might be interesting for all the airlines trying to hire talent. Maybe HA with the cost of living problems that was mentioned earlier and the growth coming up might make it more interesting. I don't care tho, I'm gonna make it my no. 1 goal.

You are still in the running until you hear of interviews. Don't count yourself out quite yet. On the inter-island side we are running a bit short on FOs (can't speak to the WW staffing), and if they decide to hire in the near term, it will be from the current pool... Good luck!

Thank you Sidestep, your insight is much appreciated!

"Truth be told, your last statement may be valid for the younger senior guys on our list, but if you're an older guy hired after 2011, a combined seniority list with American or Delta will mean a much faster upgrade due to massive retirements at those carriers. "

Cat 3,

I'm afraid I'd have to question this thought, not because I don't respect you professionally, but because I've lived through some of this before. All bets are off, and pure greed takes over, following any seniority list integration. Lawsuits continue for years afterwords, and nobody is happy. Assets get moved around, contracts countermanded and controverted, arbitrators obligated one way or the other....no one can ever really predict the outcome EXCEPT most people will be unhappy! The BEST POSSIBLE outcome for those on the HA seniority list is to remain strong, independent, and profitable!