JetBlue pilot online job application issues
10-25-2017, 08:59 AM
#71
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by jtrain609
A few additional points.
I wouldn't say growth has been slowed, I'd say it's been redistributed to an obtainable level. The airline can't accept more than one airframe per month. This has been publicly stated by Robin. The growth has been spread evenly instead of trying to take 25 airframes in the 4Q, which is impossible.
Pay isn't the lowest, unless you call Allegiant, Frontier and Spirit outside of the peer set. I understand that when you're talking about the "peer set" that the airilne looked at when averaging pay, they're not included, but they're Airbus operators. Look at the FO rates at Frontier, they max out at $100 an hour at year 12. A JetBlue FO will surpass this after 2 years and one day on property. If you think the airline is simply ignoring those airlines when making their arguments on pay rates, then I believe you are wrong.
Growth can go away, that's correct, but it hasn't. Retirements can be used to stop hiring. This happened at United recently, they parked the 747 fleet in and didn't hire for 9 months. Imagine being the bottom guy on that United list for 9 months, watching the airline shrink around you.
My point being there are no guarantees. You seem to believe there are guarantees, where I contend no such thing exists in this industry at any level.
I wouldn't say growth has been slowed, I'd say it's been redistributed to an obtainable level. The airline can't accept more than one airframe per month. This has been publicly stated by Robin. The growth has been spread evenly instead of trying to take 25 airframes in the 4Q, which is impossible.
Pay isn't the lowest, unless you call Allegiant, Frontier and Spirit outside of the peer set. I understand that when you're talking about the "peer set" that the airilne looked at when averaging pay, they're not included, but they're Airbus operators. Look at the FO rates at Frontier, they max out at $100 an hour at year 12. A JetBlue FO will surpass this after 2 years and one day on property. If you think the airline is simply ignoring those airlines when making their arguments on pay rates, then I believe you are wrong.
Growth can go away, that's correct, but it hasn't. Retirements can be used to stop hiring. This happened at United recently, they parked the 747 fleet in and didn't hire for 9 months. Imagine being the bottom guy on that United list for 9 months, watching the airline shrink around you.
My point being there are no guarantees. You seem to believe there are guarantees, where I contend no such thing exists in this industry at any level.
Growth hasn't stopped YET.
I know there are no guarantees.
As for using Spirit and Frontier as peers, are they not at their end-stages of contract negotiations? Why would we include them when their contracts are horribly outdated and will be brought up to or near industry standard in the near future? I think including Spirit and Frontier is an illogical and terrible idea and hope our NC does NOT agree with you!
Spirit and Frontier compete with Delta and fly Airbuses. Did Delta accept less in their new CBA? Or did they ignore BAD DATA and charge ahead with pay rates that triggered pay raises at UAL and AA? For your reference our profit margins (the only real relevant and scalable metric) are much higher than Delta's.
10-25-2017, 09:29 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
I disagree that we couldn't grow faster in this environment, unless we are entirely inept (no comment).
Growth hasn't stopped YET.
I know there are no guarantees.
As for using Spirit and Frontier as peers, are they not at their end-stages of contract negotiations? Why would we include them when their contracts are horribly outdated and will be brought up to or near industry standard in the near future? I think including Spirit and Frontier is an illogical and terrible idea and hope our NC does NOT agree with you!
Spirit and Frontier compete with Delta and fly Airbuses. Did Delta accept less in their new CBA? Or did they ignore BAD DATA and charge ahead with pay rates that triggered pay raises at UAL and AA? For your reference our profit margins (the only real relevant and scalable metric) are much higher than Delta's.
Growth hasn't stopped YET.
I know there are no guarantees.
As for using Spirit and Frontier as peers, are they not at their end-stages of contract negotiations? Why would we include them when their contracts are horribly outdated and will be brought up to or near industry standard in the near future? I think including Spirit and Frontier is an illogical and terrible idea and hope our NC does NOT agree with you!
Spirit and Frontier compete with Delta and fly Airbuses. Did Delta accept less in their new CBA? Or did they ignore BAD DATA and charge ahead with pay rates that triggered pay raises at UAL and AA? For your reference our profit margins (the only real relevant and scalable metric) are much higher than Delta's.
10-25-2017, 10:11 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
Not exactly.
But you came to the right conclusion using the correct argument.
10-25-2017, 10:23 AM
#75
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by jtrain609
You're right, I deleted the post with the logic in it. I realized trying to win a fight on the internet isn't worth negotiating in public.
But you came to the right conclusion using the correct argument.
But you came to the right conclusion using the correct argument.
10-25-2017, 10:29 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
I didn't "come" to any conclusion as a result of your "educating" me. You made some absurd comments and I showed them to be exactly that. I'm not impressed with your attempt at educating me on this industry or JetBlue.
10-25-2017, 10:59 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
JetBlue pilot online job application issues
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
I didn't "come" to any conclusion as a result of your "educating" me. You made some absurd comments and I showed them to be exactly that. I'm not impressed with your attempt at educating me on this industry or JetBlue.
It’s too bad that you don’t listen to others. He has experience actually negotiating for a pilot group.
You don’t want to have a discussion. You want to shout down anyone who has a different perspective, and find things to confirm your own biases. Google “Confirmation Bias.”
Educate yourself.
Last edited by Southerner; 10-25-2017 at 11:10 AM.
10-25-2017, 11:11 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by Southerner
It’s too bad that you don’t listen to others. He has experience actually negotiating for a pilot group.
Like I said, I'm far from an optimist, but things should work out here.
10-25-2017, 11:11 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by Southerner
It’s too bad that you don’t listen to others. He has experience actually negotiating for a pilot group.
You don’t want to have a discussion. You want to shout down anyone who has a different perspective, and find things to confirm your own biases. Google “Confirmation Bias.”
Educate yourself.
You don’t want to have a discussion. You want to shout down anyone who has a different perspective, and find things to confirm your own biases. Google “Confirmation Bias.”
Educate yourself.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
