Originally Posted by Southerner

Apples/Oranges. He’s saying that we shouldn’t use their numbers for contract comparison. I agree with that. The three of us (Spirit, Frontier, JetBlue) are all in similar stages of negotiations. So none of us should use our rates for comparison.

I’m saying that we aren’t the worst in the industry as a place to work, which (as discussed) we already don’t agree on how to determine. And for that we absolutely should look at them, especially since we are in a similar place negotiation-wise. I think we are in a far better place that Spirit with regard to negotiations.

Even if Spirit got a contract tomorrow and it paid the most in the industry, I wouldn’t want to work there. I don’t like their product. I don’t like their fleet. I don’t like their customers. Those things are far more important to me than a pay rate.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

Our superior profit margins don't justify your willingness to work for less just because you think this is a fun place to work. And you shouldn't be pushing your work-for-less-this-place-is-fun agenda on the rest of us.



My day to day at JB is not entirely unpleasant, but I have a LOT more fun at home. I come to work as most of us do, to support my family. When I'm at work I prefer a better atmosphere to a worse one, but I won't accept less pay from a wildly profitable company for that privilege. And neither should we have to.



We do NOT have to choose between pay and good work atmosphere. False choice.

Originally Posted by Southerner

“Worst amongst our peers” is not true unless you think our peers are only the legacy airlines. And keep in mind that the legacies only truly pulled away in their latest negotiation cycle, so it hasn’t been that way forever.

As far as the Fleet difference goes, you’re correct. The E190 is a much different culture, which is why there isn’t much movement off the fleet. I can’t speak to the status of the bus guys.

Originally Posted by Southerner

I’m not pushing anything onto anyone. You are.

And I didn’t say that I’m willing to vote yes to a subpar contract or that we should have to choose between the two. Stop making things up.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

I disagree. But if you are now saying you agree that we shouldn't accept lower pay because we like our job then good enough for me.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

No Joe, he doesn't have that right. It's no different than you guys wanting to shut down my negative speech/posts. I may be more aggressive about it, but it's easier to be aggressive when you have hard data points like pay rates and retirement contribution rates to point to. You guys push back very repeatedly and regularly with your optimism that things will get better.

You all seek confirmation bias that reinforces your positive views, which basically hinge on the belief in a better future. Pretending you guys are so different is laughable. You just take the opposite side of the same coin.

Can't wait until this is all behind us.

Originally Posted by Southerner

I disagree. The only portion of your actual message that I disagree with is that it is “horrible here” and that people should avoid even applying to come here. That’s a matter of opinion for you, and it could have real negative impacts on someone if they chose to stay at a regional rather than come here. I don’t like the extreme negativity because I think it is an overreaction to the state of affairs here, but you are entitled to be that way.

The ONLY reason that I post to counter your comments on here is so that other people who aren’t pilots here can see that your voice isn’t the only voice. If those of us who disagree remain silent, your voice becomes the only one, and since those guys aren’t actually here, they think you’re actually the majority when you most definitely are not.

When I went back to the line I half expected to hear the same sentiments that you spout on here because it is true that an instructor doesn’t get a real picture of the line flying just round trips to Nassau from Orlando. But my experience has been instead that most FOs are very thoughtful about the conditions here, and agree more with Payne, myself, and JTrain. They see the areas that need improvement, and are cautiously optimistic that we will have a CBA within a year.

I flew with an FO who is from Venezuela, and his quote I thought was perfect. “The Pilots who are super negative here have lost perspective.” I agree with him. It is possible to want to fix the areas that need to be fixed, yet maintain a love of this company. You, me, Payne, and most others are truly more invested in this company than any executive. So I want us to succeed. We can’t succeed without a CBA, if for no other reason than pilot acquisition and retention.

I can say that if things don’t start change in 2018, people will likely start getting more negative. But it isn’t there yet, in my experience. I’ve only flown with a single FO who was super negative, and it was his first trip off of IOE. He had a good friend who agreed with you, and had filled the poor guy full of vitriol. Then he got wrapped up into an IROP, and rather than understand that IROPS at all Airlines are challenging (because he’s military and hasn’t seen another airline run) he immediately went hyper negative. (Because it confirmed his biases.) His buddy has done him a disservice. Attitudes are contagious, and that poor guy was miserable. It was sad to see, honestly.

Good luck man. I hope that a CBA makes you happy, though in my experience happiness comes from within.

Originally Posted by Cautious

Has anyone clicked "Next" or "Save and Finish Later" after filling out the work experience page and been taken back to the job search page or had the work experience page evaporate? Any work arounds? Sorry if I missed it earlier, running to work...