The TA is finally here
06-25-2018 | 12:38 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,274
Likes: 55
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.
Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.
Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.
Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.
Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.
Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.
Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.
Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.
Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.
Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.
Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.
Man I could not agree more.
Well put.
06-25-2018 | 12:41 PM
#92
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.
Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.
Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.
Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.
Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.
Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.
Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.
Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.
Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.
Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.
Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.
Oh, but if we stop growing we can claw it all back. Riiiight.
because when the company is falling on hard times it will be a cake walk to eliminate highly profitable code shares. Scope is weak. 2. Work rules: Yes there are some improvements, but there are also concessions. Reserve was touted as "going senior its so good!" Yea, it will go senior because those are the only guys getting LCR. For everyone else it's pretty much the same. 17 days in a crash pad. Someone will fly those redeye turns fellas.
Still doing post flights.
Still cleaning while standby.
No jumps seating or allowing OAL in mint.
No crew meals on transcons.
Pairing construction? Unstacking? I guess these are improvements but I do not see how they are large ones. The way I read it the pairings honestly won't change much.
The company can make you go to the doctor if sick? Isn't that one of the reasons DAL voted theirs down? Along with IOE trips (which we also give up).
OH, and let's not forget the big one. BINDING ARBITRATION FOR NEW AIRCRAFT. Huge huge huge giveaway.
3. Pay: *sigh*
Kick in the nuts. When you account for the loss of PTO sell back this area ranges from 1%-10% increase. We will be near the bottom. We have talked at length about how bad the rates are. Where are those amazing work rules that were gong to make up for us dragging the industry down? I'm still waiting.
06-25-2018 | 01:29 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: I'm Buying
Yeah that’s a solid point. DAL, UAL, SWA, American etc. all revolutionized the industry with industry topping contracts out of the gate with their first TA’s. All the negoations since have just been a formality.
06-25-2018 | 02:13 PM
#95
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 516
Likes: 86
It's up live on the b6 site. Got a lot of reading to do over the next couple days.
I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.
I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.
06-25-2018 | 02:15 PM
#96
Line holder
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,179
Likes: 259
From: Aircraft & Seat: old & hard
United has this and it’s fantastic. As a commuter when I was domestic I would bid for DHs on the start and end of trips just to get the DH home.
Word of caution:
it is difficult to get released from the DH home due to reassignments and they almost never release a reserve with days left to that home DH. I’ve never had a problem on the DH TO work.
Also at UA you are responsible for your own transportation to/from the hotel if the DH begins or ends at a layover point. You will keep the hotel room but not the car.
Word of caution:
it is difficult to get released from the DH home due to reassignments and they almost never release a reserve with days left to that home DH. I’ve never had a problem on the DH TO work.
Also at UA you are responsible for your own transportation to/from the hotel if the DH begins or ends at a layover point. You will keep the hotel room but not the car.
06-25-2018 | 02:21 PM
#98
Line holder
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,179
Likes: 259
From: Aircraft & Seat: old & hard
DAL doesn't fly it. AA pilots spend very little time on it and they are all being sold. We have to compare it with other 100ish seat airplanes and when you do that it becomes clear how poorly it is paid. Then, add 44 seats for the same pay.
From wikipedia:
"The E195-E2 (EMB 190-400) will be extended by three seat rows from the E195 by 2.85 m (9.4 ft), and will accommodate up to 144 seats."
That is 6 short of a current A320, paid like a current E190.
Great deal for the company.
Um... Vote Yes?? Right Bubs??
From wikipedia:
"The E195-E2 (EMB 190-400) will be extended by three seat rows from the E195 by 2.85 m (9.4 ft), and will accommodate up to 144 seats."
That is 6 short of a current A320, paid like a current E190.
Great deal for the company.
Um... Vote Yes?? Right Bubs??
06-25-2018 | 03:03 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
It's up live on the b6 site. Got a lot of reading to do over the next couple days.
I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.
I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
