Yes vs. no
07-17-2018 | 11:39 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 919
Likes: 27
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
07-17-2018 | 04:11 PM
#12
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
The implementation LOA alone is really scary, honestly. 12/31/2019 for some of the best provisions is concerning.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
07-17-2018 | 05:05 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
From: fifi whisperer
The implementation LOA alone is really scary, honestly. 12/31/2019 for some of the best provisions is concerning.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
The implementation LOA sucks. Period. But either we can wait until 12/31/19 to get some of the best pieces of the LOA or we can vote down the TA and wait until 12/31/19 to get a contract and have a have 2.5 years of 10hr 3 days, no scope protections, and making 18.5% less than I’d be making with the TA.
IMHO. Sign it now. Codify no scope, work rules and fight to live another day in 2022.
07-17-2018 | 08:51 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Instead of dealing in facts, this is a false talking point created to boost your own initiative. Are you saying the pilot group that has top pay rates today will always be on top? Has that always been the case? Markets and environments change, and you have no way of predicting what those would look like in the future any better than you could have 20 years ago.
07-17-2018 | 08:56 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
The implementation LOA alone is really scary, honestly. 12/31/2019 for some of the best provisions is concerning.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
There should have been financial penalties associated with the Company not delivering an acceptable schedule for adhering to this contract.
BUT....BUT
We have to judge this document on its merits and compare it to what the alternate outcome is. I don't believe in any possible way that we would achieve another AIP for at least a year. Are the holes worth holding up for a year at the earliest? I haven't decided yet.
As a reserve guy, I am most impacted by implementation. I'd prefer to start implementing rather than kick the can down the road. How'd that work for us when we voted no to a union...twice?
Last edited by expectholding; 07-17-2018 at 09:09 PM.
07-18-2018 | 08:26 AM
#16
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Exactly right.
The implementation LOA sucks. Period. But either we can wait until 12/31/19 to get some of the best pieces of the LOA or we can vote down the TA and wait until 12/31/19 to get a contract and have a have 2.5 years of 10hr 3 days, no scope protections, and making 18.5% less than I’d be making with the TA.
IMHO. Sign it now. Codify no scope, work rules and fight to live another day in 2022.
The implementation LOA sucks. Period. But either we can wait until 12/31/19 to get some of the best pieces of the LOA or we can vote down the TA and wait until 12/31/19 to get a contract and have a have 2.5 years of 10hr 3 days, no scope protections, and making 18.5% less than I’d be making with the TA.
IMHO. Sign it now. Codify no scope, work rules and fight to live another day in 2022.
07-18-2018 | 09:24 AM
#17
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
Instead of dealing in facts, this is a false talking point created to boost your own initiative. Are you saying the pilot group that has top pay rates today will always be on top? Has that always been the case? Markets and environments change, and you have no way of predicting what those would look like in the future any better than you could have 20 years ago.
I'll wait.
07-19-2018 | 08:15 AM
#18
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
Financial penalties remove the grievance process (jetblue is complying with the "fine", therefore meeting terms of agreement and nothing to grieve) and that fine would likely be distributed to the whole pilot group instead of the pilot impacted by the non-implemented item. That doesn't work as well as you think.
As a reserve guy, I am most impacted by implementation. I'd prefer to start implementing rather than kick the can down the road. How'd that work for us when we voted no to a union...twice?
As a reserve guy, I am most impacted by implementation. I'd prefer to start implementing rather than kick the can down the road. How'd that work for us when we voted no to a union...twice?
Consider this legal scenario:
- You just signed up with a new cell phone service provider (or your existing one has temporary outtages).
- BJ pushes an assignment to you via JETCRW.
- You fail to acknowledge it and you don't see it on your phone until you get the notification and realize report time was 15 minutes ago.
- Now you have a "missed trip" on your Dependability Policy.
Either way, if it's not in the contract, it doesn't exist. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise because that is the legal standard. The alternative argument is: why bother having a contract if we could simply use assumptions & expectations to litigate everything?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
07-19-2018 | 08:24 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Wow, I've already found a lot of "gotchas" in the TA but I missed that one, Q. The Definitions include a description of Positive Contact and two-way communications over Jetcrw are one form of positive contact. In the reserve section it says they have to make a "positive contact attempt" so if they attempt to notify you through jetcrw it seems like your scenario could actually happen. I also turn off notifications on my phone sometimes but leave the ringer on so I only get woken up by something important... on the flip side I don't know if anyone has a long enough notification chime option to wake them up from a deep slumber...
07-19-2018 | 09:28 AM
#20
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
Wow, I've already found a lot of "gotchas" in the TA but I missed that one, Q. The Definitions include a description of Positive Contact and two-way communications over Jetcrw are one form of positive contact. In the reserve section it says they have to make a "positive contact attempt" so if they attempt to notify you through jetcrw it seems like your scenario could actually happen. I also turn off notifications on my phone sometimes but leave the ringer on so I only get woken up by something important... on the flip side I don't know if anyone has a long enough notification chime option to wake them up from a deep slumber...
If I were a BJ lawyer, F&H, a corrupt arbitrator (all of them), or Bozo, I would have a field day finding loopholes in EVERY section of the TA to exploit to benefit my bottom line. Even the commuter policy that says "no discipline will be...." has an escape clause where the pilot is responsible for "adequate planning" yet again doesn't define "adequate planning". By their reasoning, you should've shown up 3 days in advance of your reserve pairing because you should have been planning for that freak snowstorm or line of thunderstorms. Again... a legal weakness for the lawyers to exploit.
I mention this example because similar scenarios have already happened in real life. BJ exploited the lack of definition of positive contact to the detriment of the pilot, who was royally punished.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
