You don't understand what I am saying. I was only commenting on you comparing future rates for different years. I think that is mathematically incorrect. At no point did I say anything about any pay rates being good enough. And nobody at NK is saying we got a great TA because our rates are okay compared to the rates at UA/AA. We know that they will get a TA soon with higher rates than you and I get.

 

Lots of chest thumping here. For the record, I’m voting yes.

several points-

1) talk to your reps.

2) I think the pay is good (not great) but the pay rates is what is going to make me vote yes.

3) I view this extension as a stepping stone to a much better JBCA.

 

The fact is they don’t need a deal worse than pilots right now. There’s a limit to what they’re going to spend on this short term extension. This deal alone costs the company 2-3% percent in revenue earnings per year according to our union. For a company that isn’t even currently turning a profit and won’t for some time to come. Myth 2 is we’ll be under this for 4-5 years. Yea ok, you guys keep regurgitating the same stupid bullish!t to make your bravado sound better. We’ll start negotiating the JCBA next spring. So a year after this proposed TA would become effective. Should the DOJ approve this, the company needs to integrate both airlines as quickly as possible. It’s cost them a fortune to have to keep operating as 2 separate airlines. A realistic timeline is 2-3 years before we have a JCBA.
Let’s say we send this back, what’s that do to our timeline? I can promise you at least a few reps will resign, so they’ll need replaced. Months more negotiations with the company at best. At some point, how do you know the company won’t just pull the offer and say we’ll just operate lean until the JCBA?? How do you know that’s not a possibility? Again, there’s a limit to what we can squeeze before it makes no sense for them. Imo, we’re leaving money on the table by stretching out this timeline…it’s certainly a risk. In the meantime, who has a deal? Alaska. We jump them significantly straight away and they’ve been negotiating for the past 4-5 years. Delta has an AIP that barely passed. Let’s not pretend like American, United, and Southwest all have TA’s or even close. By the time they do, we are pattern bargaining again within the year. Again, unique situation. We do have leverage but not as much as some of
you guys think. For those of you that say we accepted the 1st offer that was sent out, this is probably the 9th or 10th offer that was finally deemed acceptable enough to send out.
To the unions credit, they pivoted away from full Section 6 negotiations and focused on rates. Yes, they got everyone hyped with PS. That’s debatable whether it was a good tactic. It did net us another 17k captains 11k for FO’s. That’s not nothing. Especially for a company that’s not turning a profit.
I don’t like the lack of PS on this, but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on atm.
I don’t like the snap up putting us behind Alaska. No offense to Alaska, but I don’t want them included in our peer group in the JCBA.
Based on a shortened timeline and the full context of all the moving parts in the equation, it just makes more sense to me to vote yes. I’m not trying to change anyones mind, don’t care what you vote, just offering a different point of view.

 

One other thing that concerns me is our union satisfying the survey data and thinking that’s job well done. That’s job ‘barely acceptable’. They better start educating this pilot group now about where we are amongst our peers, what the lack of PS does to our earnings, and where exactly we should be. In other words, protect pilots from themselves. PS is a nonstarter for me on the JCBA. It should be for all
the Spirit pilots too. If our union falls short during that negotiation, it will be recall city.

 

this! Couldn’t agree more.

 

​​​​​​Point of correction, this TA does not put us ahead of Alaska. Nevermind their new 5:15 ADG, just talking rates, Alaska has a GUARANTEED performance bonus program. It pays a MINIMUM of 5%, always, and up to 10%.

If you take their $306 rate, add the GUARANTEED 5% they are at $321+. We are behind Alaska right from the start.

 

Absolutely agree with everything here... The survey data was outdated, as the survey was before the Delta AIP rates, and as you say, the union has been absolutely MISSING IN ACTION when it comes to educating this group about how far behind we are on profit sharing.

Each year at profit sharing time when JB pilots get their Jelly of the Month Certificate (just the certificate, we don't even get the jelly), the union should send a mailer to each pilots home showing what a DL, UAL, ALK, AA and SWA pilot get for each $100k, $200k, $300k and $400k of income.

Would be a very simple graphic depiction of what our peers get, and what the value of that benefit is. Only then would survey data be complete and valid. Just showing the formula isn't good enough, show the pilots the RESULT of those formulas.

 

To sum this line of thinking up...

"This offer ends soon! Buy now while supplies last!"


Fine print waaaaay at the bottom: "Shipping and handling is half your retro pay. Claims of highest paid narrowbody pilots only includes hourly pay, and doesn't include priofit sharing, or AIPs already under review elsewhere."

Havent you guys ever bought a used car before? Well congratulations, you're about to buy a 1997 Saturn.

 

Yes they negotiated a full contract Bluedriver, so we’re gonna be lacking in ADG and other areas. These are all things we’d still be negotiating in Section 6, which undoubtedly would take another year or possibly 2 if there wasn’t a merger on the horizon. The union decided to zero in on rates and achieve them quickly. As a mid level Airbus FO, it helped fix our slope and gives me a substantial raise. You are correct though Blue, the lack of PS immediacy impacts us. Thing is, we aren’t turning a profit, and the company seems h3ll bent on not giving it up currently. I’ve made the personal decision that I can live with that for this short term, but I’ve told my reps they had better start telling Robin to warm up to PS sooner than later because I’m going to die on that hill come JCBA. The reps agree.

 

Pay rates are effective March 1st. Doubt many reps would resign (although many should). The replacement could be done in feb. Re-polling wouldn’t be necessary…they would know a number that could move it over the finish line based on the result…just like they didn’t re-poll after the other AIPs came out (though they should have), they wouldn’t necessarily have to if this got sent back. But even if they did, that could be done in feb/March. Negotiate in April. Maybe into may. What comes after that? Oh yeah. Summer. When they have barely 100 applicants, but will lose 150-200 by summer in attrition, you really think they will drag it out more?

a new deal could be ratified by May 1st, certainly June 1st. And retro (would need to be full and complete, unlike the current TA) would cover the lost 2-3 months, and then be money on top above that. Company needs it more than the pilots.

You yes vote chest thumpers (including many in the union) don’t get it and likely never will. Which is why I say this JCBA won’t be quite the cakewalk you guys seem to think it is.

You guys had crystal clear black and white scope that prevented 3 aspects of the NEA (focus city to focus city, focus city to international, and revenue sharing). Company did it anyway. You think they’ll just fold on a JCBA because of something in your contract? You think this MEC/NC at B6 and NK will be able to extract a delta level contract from them when they barely extracted a turd and sold it as a filet dinner? The can’t combine airlines until a JCBA…right up until they figure out a way to “do it anyway” (or do something else anyway) and then CK folds like a wet noodle with some new “we’ll get them next time, this time we need to just vote this in as our first JCBA and then the REAL leverage will be next time” BS. You’re about to get another lesson in how the company is smarter and stronger than the union. Union almost unanimously voted in favor (with the sell job support of national E&FA) of letting them “do it anyway” (a blatant and clear scope violation) with the NEA for 2%. Then they boosted it to 3% and it passed. And now they unanimously voted in an extremely subpar TA again that cements you at the bottom of your peer group. And you think they will magically get all that stuff you want “next time”? Glad you think that.

I’ll be happy to be wrong. But in 3-4 years, I’ll be the first to say I told you so when everyone else is at $380+ an hour, with profit sharing, better 401k, better work rules, more days off, and you’re either waiting with nothing, or debating a yes/no vote on a very subpar JCBA. A yes vote now by B6 ALPA guys to this garbage TA (especially joining with NK who voted in worse) with the most leverage in B6 history (due to hiring/attrition) leads right to that outcome. Enjoy your “second bite at the apple.” It’ll be rotten by the time you sink your teeth in it.