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Old 03-31-2020, 11:04 AM   #141  
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Absolutely, completely, horribly incorrect.
No, the only precedent or legal basis for Federal control is martial law. Even that is legally nebulous, primarily based on precedent vice law except for the insurrection act... but there's no insurrection, and there's no way you can spin people picnicing in the park as an "insurrection".

The executive can most certainly deploy federal to troops to aid and assist in a humanitarian crisis, and this has already happened, with more to come. But there's a line drawn with federal troops at police functions, although there are some legal loopholes with Posse Commitatus, notably the entire USMC.

Frankly the legal ins and outs are complicated. You can generally work your way into federal control or at least federal police assistance during rioting/looting situations vis a vis the Insurrection Act.

But absent an Insurrection, there's no way for the fed to impose carte blanche restrictions on state citizens, or even enforce such restrictions imposed by state governors. That could be changed if laws were passed, and survived the inevitable constitutional challenges but that would take years. The federal military can and is providing a lot of assistance on the ground, but there's a pretty bright red line at policing (unless rioting or other insurrection occurs).
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:08 AM   #142  
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Normally I would say that he is correct, but seeing the way this administration has no regard for the constitution or laws in general, then yes, he would be incorrect.
He is correct, the military leadership would refuse such an order. Every senior officer is fairly well versed on the legalities and we have lawyers to remind/advise us.

You could deploy federal forces anywhere, and the mere presence of armed military units would likely provide a stabilizing affect. Such forces could self-defend, and also defend other US persons who are observed to be under attack. But they can't bother people out walking their dog (the National Guard can though, when under state control).
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:11 AM   #143  
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sorry grandma, uncle doing chemo, and my cousin with asthma the economy was angry and needed a sacrifice.

200 years from now civilization is going to look back on us the way we view the Aztecs ripping out peoples still beating hearts
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:11 AM   #144  
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He is correct, the military leadership would refuse such an order. Every senior officer is fairly well versed on the legalities and we have lawyers to remind/advise us.
You have to read more than the first sentence. I mentioned the military commanders pushing back on such an order.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:13 AM   #145  
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You have to read more than the first sentence. I mentioned the military commanders pushing back on such an order.
You said you were hopeful. I'm not hopeful, I know.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:20 AM   #146  
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You said you were hopeful. I'm not hopeful, I know.
Before I retired, I would’ve been that confident too. Now, every time I see members of the joint chiefs on TV with Trump, they look ashamed to be working under a man with no regard for everything they swore to uphold and defend. I really hope that if he told them to send in the military to lock down a city, they would tell him to go **** himself, but as evidenced by his previous behavior, he will just fire each of them until he finds someone who will do what he wants.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:41 AM   #147  
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Before I retired, I would’ve been that confident too. Now, every time I see members of the joint chiefs on TV with Trump, they look ashamed to be working under a man with no regard for everything they swore to uphold and defend. I really hope that if he told them to send in the military to lock down a city, they would tell him to go **** himself, but as evidenced by his previous behavior, he will just fire each of them until he finds someone who will do what he wants.
Current and/or former Joint Chiefs holding a press conference to describe a constitutional crisis vis-a-vis illegal executive orders would be any president's worst nightmare... because that's the first step down the road to upholding one's oath about the constitution and all enemies foriegn and domestic. Nobody is going to be stupid enough to press-to-test on that one.

Besides the executive branch does not even want the current economy-damaging restrictions, much less more of the same.

Also a little DC inside baseball... POTUS has secured more support from his party than he would have had otherwise by consistently leaving the DoD (and other security agencies) in the hands of competent professionals. Even if he fires them, the replacements are still competent (and in this context that means ethically competent as well). Lots of people sleep better at night with that business model.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:23 PM   #148  
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Lots of people sleep better at night with that business model.

“Lots” is a relative term; and please don’t try to pull up some crappy poll, especially any that have been done in the last few weeks.

I’m glad you support this guy and think he’s doing a swell job and I’m glad that you think that the [people] that Trump puts in charge of these various agencies have a sense of ethics. I’m also glad that you think that all members of the military are all fine upstanding folks who don’t break the law and won’t violate their oaths to please Trump.

Myself, and “lots” of other people feel and/or know differently.

The guy is incompetent and completely incapable of managing this whole issue and you can see it by his moving the goal posts. A few weeks ago he said we’d go from 15 to 0 like a miracle, and now he’s already preparing to claim victory if fewer than 200,000 Americans die. In a few weeks, if he raises that number again, I’m going to invite you over here to the pessimistic side to watch panic mode set in and we’ll see what desperation moves he attempts.

Honestly, if I’m wrong, I’ll gladly eat crow and admit that I was wrong about it all, but I have ZERO faith in this guy, and I know that somebody will snap to and follow whatever illegal order he gives when the **** hits the fan.

Last edited by rickair7777; 04-02-2020 at 07:01 AM. Reason: [MOD EDIT] Partisan Politics
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:50 PM   #149  
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I believe we are entering into a politics discussion, are we not Rick ?
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:52 PM   #150  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
No, the only precedent or legal basis for Federal control is martial law. Even that is legally nebulous, primarily based on precedent vice law except for the insurrection act... but there's no insurrection, and there's no way you can spin people picnicing in the park as an "insurrection".

The executive can most certainly deploy federal to troops to aid and assist in a humanitarian crisis, and this has already happened, with more to come. But there's a line drawn with federal troops at police functions, although there are some legal loopholes with Posse Commitatus, notably the entire USMC.

Frankly the legal ins and outs are complicated. You can generally work your way into federal control or at least federal police assistance during rioting/looting situations vis a vis the Insurrection Act.

But absent an Insurrection, there's no way for the fed to impose carte blanche restrictions on state citizens, or even enforce such restrictions imposed by state governors. That could be changed if laws were passed, and survived the inevitable constitutional challenges but that would take years. The federal military can and is providing a lot of assistance on the ground, but there's a pretty bright red line at policing (unless rioting or other insurrection occurs).
Who said anything about involving the military? Only you guys.
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